It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.

Say again? A quick look at the Yahoo Autos tells me that the 2005
Civic Hydrid is available with a 5-speed manual transmission. The
same goes for the Insight.

 

Yep - forget about that site. It's pretty messed up. It also describes the
SHS as having two 67 hp motors, while MG1 is about half that capacity.

Something like that. The engine is spun up by differential between MG1 and
MG2, and regen braking is almost exclusively MG2. Reverse is MG2 all the
way. When driving, MG1 is primarily responsible for controlling the engine
load (virtual gear ratio), and it is in that role it operates as a
generator.

At full output, a significant part of the engine power is channeled through
MG1 to MG2. That part limits the power of the system because the power can
only be counted once. For example, if you have a 100 hp engine and a 50 hp
motor, but at full power 20 hp of the motor output comes from the engine
through MG1 (rather than from the battery) the total is only 130 hp.

Mike

 

Yep - forget about that site. It's pretty messed up. It also describes the
SHS as having two 67 hp motors, while MG1 is about half that capacity.

Something like that. The engine is spun up by differential between MG1 and
MG2, and regen braking is almost exclusively MG2. Reverse is MG2 all the
way. When driving, MG1 is primarily responsible for controlling the engine
load (virtual gear ratio), and it is in that role it operates as a
generator.

At full output, a significant part of the engine power is channeled through
MG1 to MG2. That part limits the power of the system because the power can
only be counted once. For example, if you have a 100 hp engine and a 50 hp
motor, but at full power 20 hp of the motor output comes from the engine
through MG1 (rather than from the battery) the total is only 130 hp.

Mike

 

I had heard that. But at stall, that's 94 HP, isn't it? I've heard of
people getting stuck in potholes, because they couldn't move forward and
didn't have the power to move backward. I was trying to decide how I could
test for that.

I've heard that this power arrangement, where MG1 is draining power during
highest power demand, is due in part to the battery not having enough of an
amperage rating to drive MG2 at full power, but I wonder about that. Maybe
it just isn't efficeient to run at full power from the batteries for very
long, due to the total amp-hours available, and a balance has been
found that is more efficient.

 

I had heard that. But at stall, that's 94 HP, isn't it? I've heard of
people getting stuck in potholes, because they couldn't move forward and
didn't have the power to move backward. I was trying to decide how I could
test for that.

I've heard that this power arrangement, where MG1 is draining power during
highest power demand, is due in part to the battery not having enough of an
amperage rating to drive MG2 at full power, but I wonder about that. Maybe
it just isn't efficeient to run at full power from the batteries for very
long, due to the total amp-hours available, and a balance has been
found that is more efficient.

 

I would be surprised if these were classified as MTs. The stats
actually specify % AT and I would bet that any transmission that had
the capability to fully automatic would qualify. You have always been
able to manually shift an AT if you like.

Probably a good thing too as you would probably wear it out if you
started aggressively shifting it. The Problem is that Tiptronic et
al. don't really give you the control of an MT in that you can't
separate the engine from the drive train to allow rpm matching. Now
if they would use the same system used in the F1 cars it might be a
different story. But I think even they have a clutch pedal for
standing starts.

 

I would be surprised if these were classified as MTs. The stats
actually specify % AT and I would bet that any transmission that had
the capability to fully automatic would qualify. You have always been
able to manually shift an AT if you like.

Probably a good thing too as you would probably wear it out if you
started aggressively shifting it. The Problem is that Tiptronic et
al. don't really give you the control of an MT in that you can't
separate the engine from the drive train to allow rpm matching. Now
if they would use the same system used in the F1 cars it might be a
different story. But I think even they have a clutch pedal for
standing starts.

 

Ah, but it is a fluidic separation between the two through the
torque converter. So, what are you saying would wear out?

 

Ah, but it is a fluidic separation between the two through the
torque converter. So, what are you saying would wear out?

 

As with all cars, it's zero hp at stall (any force times zero distance).
However, the full electric torque is available. The torque is considerable -
295 ft-lb compared with the rated 82 ft-lb from the engine - so the stories
of getting stuck in potholes are urban legend. (But note the torques aren't
directly comparable because of the effect of the power split device... the
electric provides something like 2/3 of the torque at the wheels.) At any
rate, I can attest from our 40K miles experience with a 2002 model it just
isn't a problem.

This is something I have trouble getting my mind around. The bottom line is
that the hybrid computer gets the command from the accelerator and brake
pedals to go so much or stop so much, and it calls on the engine or
batteries to make it happen according to the hybrid computer's programing.
For example, in the earlier generation if more than 9 KW was needed the
engine would fire up. In the current generation it is some slightly higher
figure I don't remember.

As far as the generation by MG1, it is easiest to think of it as the way it
provides the prescribed load to the engine. That's how the "ECVT" does it
thing.

It certainly illustrates why the "ECVT" can't be replaced by a manual
transmission. The engine is a resource of the hybrid computer and is only
under the most indirect control of the driver... about the way your heart
rate is under your control. I can floor the accelerator with the shifter in
"park" and hold it there. The engine gradually revs, reaching a peak of 2250
rpm in a couple of minutes. Imagine trying to shift that arrangement.

Mike

 

As with all cars, it's zero hp at stall (any force times zero distance).
However, the full electric torque is available. The torque is considerable -
295 ft-lb compared with the rated 82 ft-lb from the engine - so the stories
of getting stuck in potholes are urban legend. (But note the torques aren't
directly comparable because of the effect of the power split device... the
electric provides something like 2/3 of the torque at the wheels.) At any
rate, I can attest from our 40K miles experience with a 2002 model it just
isn't a problem.

This is something I have trouble getting my mind around. The bottom line is
that the hybrid computer gets the command from the accelerator and brake
pedals to go so much or stop so much, and it calls on the engine or
batteries to make it happen according to the hybrid computer's programing.
For example, in the earlier generation if more than 9 KW was needed the
engine would fire up. In the current generation it is some slightly higher
figure I don't remember.

As far as the generation by MG1, it is easiest to think of it as the way it
provides the prescribed load to the engine. That's how the "ECVT" does it
thing.

It certainly illustrates why the "ECVT" can't be replaced by a manual
transmission. The engine is a resource of the hybrid computer and is only
under the most indirect control of the driver... about the way your heart
rate is under your control. I can floor the accelerator with the shifter in
"park" and hold it there. The engine gradually revs, reaching a peak of 2250
rpm in a couple of minutes. Imagine trying to shift that arrangement.

Mike

 

I have an Escape, so the "2002 model" caught me off guard there. The
getting stuck part is being written as first hand in the Edmunds forum.
<http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/[email protected]!keywords=allin%3Amsgtext%20limit%3A.ef0f4df%20stuck&count=20>

It is said that applying throttle slowly doesn't work, because of overload
sensing. I have gotten "stuck" in a small ditch on my property. I seemed
stuck, but I had read the posting, so I got "more aggressive" with the
throttle. I might go try it again, with a normally cautious application of
power, and see if the motor gives up.

I had toyed with the lack of response, but hadn't held it there...

 

I have an Escape, so the "2002 model" caught me off guard there. The
getting stuck part is being written as first hand in the Edmunds forum.
<http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/[email protected]!keywords=allin%3Amsgtext%20limit%3A.ef0f4df%20stuck&count=20>

It is said that applying throttle slowly doesn't work, because of overload
sensing. I have gotten "stuck" in a small ditch on my property. I seemed
stuck, but I had read the posting, so I got "more aggressive" with the
throttle. I might go try it again, with a normally cautious application of
power, and see if the motor gives up.

I had toyed with the lack of response, but hadn't held it there...

 

Ah - there is an "issue" with the way it handles wheel slippage. In the
older Toyota Hybrid System (THS), like in our 2002 Prius, the hybrid
computer handles wheel spin in an unsophisticated version of traction
control. In snow for example, we just push the throttle down somewhat and
the system does a sort of slow ABS in reverse, cutting power for perhaps 1/2
second when it detects wheel spin. It works well for slippery starts and
slippery hills. Apparently the Synergy Hybrid System (SHS) Toyota has made
since 2004 MY (and licensed to Ford for the Escape) responds by shutting
down power completely at ordinary throttle settings, leaving the driver
sitting until the throttle is either released or floored. I'm told the
behavior at full throttle is what I'm used to at any throttle setting. I
don't think I'd like the new way, and I don't know why Toyota changed the
hybrid computer program. I'd think having the accelerator floored when
finally getting to good road surface could be unsettling.

What surprises me is that the hybrid computer could be programmed for the
most intelligent way of handling wheel spin. The computer tightly controls
the MG2 speed; why isn't it programmed to calculate the friction it
encounters and adjust to the best torque for the conditions? It could even
be programmed to rock safely out of a hole, something that is forbidden to
the driver in the Prius (and many modern cars - my daughter's '93 Accord
expressly forbids it too.) It would require a special "gear" (selection on
the shifter - there are no gears anyway) and some lines of code but it would
be a boon. It could be far more effective than even the most experienced
driver, because it could control torque instantaneously and map the friction
contour of the hole as it worked. Maybe someday....

Mike

 

Ah - there is an "issue" with the way it handles wheel slippage. In the
older Toyota Hybrid System (THS), like in our 2002 Prius, the hybrid
computer handles wheel spin in an unsophisticated version of traction
control. In snow for example, we just push the throttle down somewhat and
the system does a sort of slow ABS in reverse, cutting power for perhaps 1/2
second when it detects wheel spin. It works well for slippery starts and
slippery hills. Apparently the Synergy Hybrid System (SHS) Toyota has made
since 2004 MY (and licensed to Ford for the Escape) responds by shutting
down power completely at ordinary throttle settings, leaving the driver
sitting until the throttle is either released or floored. I'm told the
behavior at full throttle is what I'm used to at any throttle setting. I
don't think I'd like the new way, and I don't know why Toyota changed the
hybrid computer program. I'd think having the accelerator floored when
finally getting to good road surface could be unsettling.

What surprises me is that the hybrid computer could be programmed for the
most intelligent way of handling wheel spin. The computer tightly controls
the MG2 speed; why isn't it programmed to calculate the friction it
encounters and adjust to the best torque for the conditions? It could even
be programmed to rock safely out of a hole, something that is forbidden to
the driver in the Prius (and many modern cars - my daughter's '93 Accord
expressly forbids it too.) It would require a special "gear" (selection on
the shifter - there are no gears anyway) and some lines of code but it would
be a boon. It could be far more effective than even the most experienced
driver, because it could control torque instantaneously and map the friction
contour of the hole as it worked. Maybe someday....

Mike

 

Using a pronoun @ the start of a paragraph / sentence, before
the subject matter is introduced, indicates low IQ ; nobody will
know what the pronoun represents, before the subject matter is
introduced.

 

Using a pronoun @ the start of a paragraph / sentence, before
the subject matter is introduced, indicates low IQ ; nobody will
know what the pronoun represents, before the subject matter is
introduced.

 

What are you talking about???

Mike

 

What are you talking about???

Mike

 

It's official. You're an idiot.

Inability to comprehend common, informal English indicates low IQ or
perhaps unfamiliarity with the language. Either way, you shouldn't be
giving us English lessons.

No one else has a problem understanding the phrase, "It's official."
But then, no one else thinks that the electric clock is robbing their
car of performance.