Make it easier to get safety features.

ive had this in a van for the last 5 months. Might be ust chrysler's
system, but it doesn't work too well for me, still get a loud tyre
squeal if I floor it to merge traffic. Nowadays I just turn it off
when I start the car.

i HATE this. Teach proper braking practice, not compensate for driver
inadequacy. i remember a few news stories from the UK a few years
back, where these kicked in uneqpectedly. guy tapped hi brakes because
he saw a speed camera ahead, just to chek his speed (as we all do) and
the thing did an emergency stop, causing a 3 car accident (car was
turning at the time). There were another case or two as well.
Until the car can sense the situation around it (not easy or
praticable) it should NOT have overriding command of motive systems.
Thats just plain common sense.

see your headlight switch - wire the first stop, so it'll also be
triggered by the ignition. if key's at II, lights are on - much better
than that stupid way saturn has of working off the handbrake -
friend's vue has its DRL going off every time he stops 9its a manual,
and he is n a hilly area, and drives properly, with handbrakes at
lights etc) volvo did it right years ago. if you use your regular
lights for daytime running, you don't need all the lights and
reflectors etc. just run from the ignition.

i wouldn't. I've not even a big ABS fan. i guess the problems is that
mostly these featurse are not set up as 'emergency' but as
'cautionary'. So they're on be default, and set to activate much too
soon. Of course, there are SOMe safety features I'd love to see
introduced into the UK thats been standard elsewhere for years. REAR
fog lights, for instance. Oh, and seperation of brake and turning
signals. removal of turning signals from being buried in with
headlights (see certain neons, and current crown-vics for instance.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no luddite 9in fact, quite the opopsite) but i
do know where technology should not be substituted for driver
shortcommings. instead of whacking more tech on, hold the drivers to a
higher standard.

 

That's the only way it can work. It's based on an ECU and a bunch of
sensors.

Erm... well yes. Stability protection cannot assume you're using standard
suspension and tyres on a dry road surface. If you replace your tyres for
el cheapo ones, it doesn't need to be told, it figures it out by itself.

Try this page on my website: www.dervman.com/eskid.htm (I think that's the
direct link).

Spot on. Experienced drivers do it to. It's very hard to apply the right
amount of pressure when faced with a "oh-oh" situation...

Hehehehe. Nice.

Yes, but for 99% of drivers, 99% of the time, airbags, stability protection,
ABS, EBD and EBA is additional weight and cost. Sure, when needed it's
great. I can only think of one occasion when ABS was genuinely useful in
helping me avoid something under heavy braking. It doesn't help me stop, it
allows some steering control when braking hard... but it doesn't prevent a
skid if you brake and steer at the same time.

Traction control is the same. You can still wheelspin with traction
control.

Those cars I've driven with stability protection, they vary. BMWs allow
some oversteery antics. Mercedes don't. But you can still skid off the
road.

Airbags? This Accord (waves to Accord sat outside the house) has four
airbags (and a broken SRS module but that's something else). My last
machine was written off (www.dervman.com/kd57.htm) and the airbags were not
needed, thus not used. They sat in their housing for nearly five years and
when the car was lunched into a roll then hit the kerb, they didn't
deploy...

 

That's the only way it can work. It's based on an ECU and a bunch of
sensors.

Erm... well yes. Stability protection cannot assume you're using standard
suspension and tyres on a dry road surface. If you replace your tyres for
el cheapo ones, it doesn't need to be told, it figures it out by itself.

Try this page on my website: www.dervman.com/eskid.htm (I think that's the
direct link).

Spot on. Experienced drivers do it to. It's very hard to apply the right
amount of pressure when faced with a "oh-oh" situation...

Hehehehe. Nice.

Yes, but for 99% of drivers, 99% of the time, airbags, stability protection,
ABS, EBD and EBA is additional weight and cost. Sure, when needed it's
great. I can only think of one occasion when ABS was genuinely useful in
helping me avoid something under heavy braking. It doesn't help me stop, it
allows some steering control when braking hard... but it doesn't prevent a
skid if you brake and steer at the same time.

Traction control is the same. You can still wheelspin with traction
control.

Those cars I've driven with stability protection, they vary. BMWs allow
some oversteery antics. Mercedes don't. But you can still skid off the
road.

Airbags? This Accord (waves to Accord sat outside the house) has four
airbags (and a broken SRS module but that's something else). My last
machine was written off (www.dervman.com/kd57.htm) and the airbags were not
needed, thus not used. They sat in their housing for nearly five years and
when the car was lunched into a roll then hit the kerb, they didn't
deploy...

 

Some systems are designed to prevent oversteer in corners, but nothing can
overcome the basic laws of phsyics. For the system to work you have to skid
a little, that's how it spots you're skidding. Some tyres make a louder
racket than others.

The system is not triggered if you "tap the brakes." If you aggressively
punch the pedal then it triggers, but as soon as you lift off, it lets go
too. It uses a certain element of logic too, working on what your other
controls are doing, what they've just been doing, how much force and how
hard you push the pedal, so on and so forth.

Tapping the brake pedal doesn't trigger it. You have to jack on the anchors
with lots of force.

Actually if the guy was an idiot and was hammering along then punched the
pedal, he caused the crash in conjunction with the other chuffs behind.

It doesn't. It augments what the driver does.

I've played with all sorts of electronic systems. Some can be fooled pretty
easily. Accelerate hard then brake firmly and the Mercedes EBA is
triggered. Tapping the brakes doesn't trigger it.

One problem with this solution is power consumption, which in turn is linked
to fuel consumption. Running 110 watts of bulb uses up more than running 24
watts of bulb and does make an appreciable difference to motion lotion.
Thanks to the wonders of carbon credits, every part mile per gallon is
starting to count.

And the other issue of wearing out the wretched things. How many Volvos do
you see with one headlight working?

I agree, but I suspect we both know it's not going to be possible to achieve
this.

As for ABS, two sides of the coin. On the one hand, yeah it keeps you
pointing in the right direction when you stand on the brakes. On the other,
there are idiots that believe it shortens their stopping distance and thus
tailgate and drive too fast.

Way too many British people don't have the foggiest on how to use high
visibility lights (front fog, rear fog lamps). Some idiots put *everything*
on either to look cool or at the merest hint of rain. Other chumps keep
everything off until it's dark...

 

Some systems are designed to prevent oversteer in corners, but nothing can
overcome the basic laws of phsyics. For the system to work you have to skid
a little, that's how it spots you're skidding. Some tyres make a louder
racket than others.

The system is not triggered if you "tap the brakes." If you aggressively
punch the pedal then it triggers, but as soon as you lift off, it lets go
too. It uses a certain element of logic too, working on what your other
controls are doing, what they've just been doing, how much force and how
hard you push the pedal, so on and so forth.

Tapping the brake pedal doesn't trigger it. You have to jack on the anchors
with lots of force.

Actually if the guy was an idiot and was hammering along then punched the
pedal, he caused the crash in conjunction with the other chuffs behind.

It doesn't. It augments what the driver does.

I've played with all sorts of electronic systems. Some can be fooled pretty
easily. Accelerate hard then brake firmly and the Mercedes EBA is
triggered. Tapping the brakes doesn't trigger it.

One problem with this solution is power consumption, which in turn is linked
to fuel consumption. Running 110 watts of bulb uses up more than running 24
watts of bulb and does make an appreciable difference to motion lotion.
Thanks to the wonders of carbon credits, every part mile per gallon is
starting to count.

And the other issue of wearing out the wretched things. How many Volvos do
you see with one headlight working?

I agree, but I suspect we both know it's not going to be possible to achieve
this.

As for ABS, two sides of the coin. On the one hand, yeah it keeps you
pointing in the right direction when you stand on the brakes. On the other,
there are idiots that believe it shortens their stopping distance and thus
tailgate and drive too fast.

Way too many British people don't have the foggiest on how to use high
visibility lights (front fog, rear fog lamps). Some idiots put *everything*
on either to look cool or at the merest hint of rain. Other chumps keep
everything off until it's dark...

 

Nice clear explanation. Thanks.

(should have said '07 TOYOTA)

Like fire insurance ...

It's got everything to do with how risk-averse you are, how lucky
you feel, how often you do stupid things on the road, etc.

I'm only too happy to make a modest investment that might one day
save me from my own stupidity, and just as happy when those same
safety systems are never employed.

I'm especially happy to have them so that I can also be protected
from the stupidity of other drivers, too distracted by cell
phones to stop for stop signs or traffic signals.

A few years ago I was driving around Providence in a 25 MPH zone
and approaching an intersection where the cross street traffic
had to stop and I did not.

Just before I entered the intersection a driver flashed thru it from my
left doing at least 45 MPH. The 1990 van I was driving had NO airbags
and would not have been able to avoid the accident if I had gotten there
a couple of seconds sooner. If the situation repeats itself and I'm not
so lucky next time, I REALLY want the extra protection!

The first car I had with 4-wheel disc and ABS was a Nissan
NX-2000. It was a cute little red car, and occasionally my wife
drove it. One day a truck blew through an intersection and she
had to stand on the brakes and swerve all over the place to avoid
being hit. But she did it, largely because of that hammering
under the brake pedal combined with the excellent maneuverability
of that little sports car.

The fool is always greater than the proof.
+-----------------------------------------+
| Charles Lasitter | Mailing/Shipping |
| 401/728-1987 | 14 Cooke St |
| cl+at+ncdm+dot+com | Pawtucket RI 02860 |
+-----------------------------------------+

 

Nice clear explanation. Thanks.

(should have said '07 TOYOTA)

Like fire insurance ...

It's got everything to do with how risk-averse you are, how lucky
you feel, how often you do stupid things on the road, etc.

I'm only too happy to make a modest investment that might one day
save me from my own stupidity, and just as happy when those same
safety systems are never employed.

I'm especially happy to have them so that I can also be protected
from the stupidity of other drivers, too distracted by cell
phones to stop for stop signs or traffic signals.

A few years ago I was driving around Providence in a 25 MPH zone
and approaching an intersection where the cross street traffic
had to stop and I did not.

Just before I entered the intersection a driver flashed thru it from my
left doing at least 45 MPH. The 1990 van I was driving had NO airbags
and would not have been able to avoid the accident if I had gotten there
a couple of seconds sooner. If the situation repeats itself and I'm not
so lucky next time, I REALLY want the extra protection!

The first car I had with 4-wheel disc and ABS was a Nissan
NX-2000. It was a cute little red car, and occasionally my wife
drove it. One day a truck blew through an intersection and she
had to stand on the brakes and swerve all over the place to avoid
being hit. But she did it, largely because of that hammering
under the brake pedal combined with the excellent maneuverability
of that little sports car.

The fool is always greater than the proof.
+-----------------------------------------+
| Charles Lasitter | Mailing/Shipping |
| 401/728-1987 | 14 Cooke St |
| cl+at+ncdm+dot+com | Pawtucket RI 02860 |
+-----------------------------------------+

 

thats the point. it was a system fault. Wouldn't, couldn't happen with
standard brakes, can with the EBA stuff. THATS the point.

read what you just said. It augments. how does it know it needs
augmenting. can it see why you're slowing? no, it can't. Right below
this you yourself say how you can fool these systems. If they can be
triggered into reacting inappropriately, why would you call that a
safety system.

We have a driver, a control system that samples the data all arond the
vehicle 9or is supposed to) and makes edcisions based on whats going
on around the vehicular unit. Is the car dong the same? if not, how
can it tell if the braking force needs 'augmenting'. Friend of mine
was involved with the Darpa grand challenge. one of the problems they
faced was braking - getting the braking force suitable for the
enviroment. it all depends on how far you have to stop, if you intend
to stop or just slow down, is avoidance needed, what surface you're
on, how you're loaded. no car on the market can tell any of that. It
could tell the mass you're carrying, but is that load in the back a
wardrobe, or half a tank of tropical fish, or 10 8ft sheets of
plastic. Are you stoping because there's a child just run out, you've
just spotted a cop with a radar gun, or the lights you were hoping to
make just turned red. Is it rainy, there snow, or sand on the road. If
it can't tell, how can it adapt. I could be braking, be just shy of
the braking limit for the conditions, but EBA thinks I meant to break
harder, so it presses harder, oops lockup, now thats the ABS kicking
in, thats longer stopping, less control, all for a system that think
sit knows better.

Dangerous? I should cocoa.

not when its working 100%. If you've lpayed with electronic systems,
you shoud know they're some of the most tempramental and fragile
things out there. They're also good at going wrong and giving no hint
of it until its too late.

Great, you assume the headlight bulbs are the ones used. not so, I
said the firststop. in the Us, thats the orange 'running lights', as
you should know the volvos in the UK used those small 11W sidelights.
dipped beam is the 55W elements, which are the second stop on the
headlight rocker. As a brit, i'm sure you appreciate the difference
between them - turn your lights on, turn the ignition off, and take
your keys out - should just be your sidelights that are left on.

nope, doesn't keep you opointing in any direction. it just increases
the chance that you will be able to steer. in many cases, ABS won't
stop you sliding at all. in some, it'll actualy make you spin.

again, as I said, don't use technology to compensate for stupidity.
The only way to beat that is education.

 

thats the point. it was a system fault. Wouldn't, couldn't happen with
standard brakes, can with the EBA stuff. THATS the point.

read what you just said. It augments. how does it know it needs
augmenting. can it see why you're slowing? no, it can't. Right below
this you yourself say how you can fool these systems. If they can be
triggered into reacting inappropriately, why would you call that a
safety system.

We have a driver, a control system that samples the data all arond the
vehicle 9or is supposed to) and makes edcisions based on whats going
on around the vehicular unit. Is the car dong the same? if not, how
can it tell if the braking force needs 'augmenting'. Friend of mine
was involved with the Darpa grand challenge. one of the problems they
faced was braking - getting the braking force suitable for the
enviroment. it all depends on how far you have to stop, if you intend
to stop or just slow down, is avoidance needed, what surface you're
on, how you're loaded. no car on the market can tell any of that. It
could tell the mass you're carrying, but is that load in the back a
wardrobe, or half a tank of tropical fish, or 10 8ft sheets of
plastic. Are you stoping because there's a child just run out, you've
just spotted a cop with a radar gun, or the lights you were hoping to
make just turned red. Is it rainy, there snow, or sand on the road. If
it can't tell, how can it adapt. I could be braking, be just shy of
the braking limit for the conditions, but EBA thinks I meant to break
harder, so it presses harder, oops lockup, now thats the ABS kicking
in, thats longer stopping, less control, all for a system that think
sit knows better.

Dangerous? I should cocoa.

not when its working 100%. If you've lpayed with electronic systems,
you shoud know they're some of the most tempramental and fragile
things out there. They're also good at going wrong and giving no hint
of it until its too late.

Great, you assume the headlight bulbs are the ones used. not so, I
said the firststop. in the Us, thats the orange 'running lights', as
you should know the volvos in the UK used those small 11W sidelights.
dipped beam is the 55W elements, which are the second stop on the
headlight rocker. As a brit, i'm sure you appreciate the difference
between them - turn your lights on, turn the ignition off, and take
your keys out - should just be your sidelights that are left on.

nope, doesn't keep you opointing in any direction. it just increases
the chance that you will be able to steer. in many cases, ABS won't
stop you sliding at all. in some, it'll actualy make you spin.

again, as I said, don't use technology to compensate for stupidity.
The only way to beat that is education.

 

To a degree... or perhaps how much stupidity you see on the roads instead,
heh.

*cough*

 

To a degree... or perhaps how much stupidity you see on the roads instead,
heh.

*cough*

 

EBA doesn't do it. Period. It would not be allowed to be used if it caused
accidents like this.

Imagine the law suits?

You're suggesting that we shouldn't bother with power assisted steering and
servo-assisted brakes. These also augment the driver control input in
*exactly* the same way.

No, they're not acting inappropriately. They're doing what they're
designed. But they are unable to bend the laws of phsyics. If I barrel
into Silverstone's Maggots at 95 mph, brake hard as the road drops, the back
end will waggle. It'll usually break away. The stability protection is of
limited use when the rear wheels are not in proper contact with the tarmac.

That's where the fuzzy logic is involved. It's 2FC/2, i.e., very clever
stuff. But it works from what the driver does. See my other comment about
power assisted steering.

No.

In isolation it doesn't work this way *unless* you're on a racing circuit
and you know exactly how much pressure to apply and when, thus you can thump
the pedal to achieve maximum retardation and you do it very quickly.

On the road, only fools thump the brake pedal without wishing to stop in a
hurry. It knows the difference between quick and firm rolling on the
pressure and a sudden thump. That's what the system spots. Most fools
quickly learn that if they thump the pedal of a car with EBA it stops
quicker than they *first* anticipated.

The first time one drives a new car, we learn stuff about it. Say it has a
quicker steering rack. We may oversteer the first one or two corners. Then
we learn. It's precisely the same with *any* situation.

First time I triggered the ABS in our Ka was a learning experience. Second
time I knew what to expect.

Herein is precisely why the driver in the circumstances needs to be educated
or at least try it.

As for the stopping distance and control argument, stopping distances are
slightly longer with the ABS humming away than a skilled driver without ABS
in ideal circumstances. I don't know of any driver than can hold a car at
the point just before lock up in an emergency situation such as the ones
you've described.

No more so than servo assisted brakes. Nothing an experiment can't get
over. I don't understand your concerns. It is as though you don't want to
learn about these new fangled power brakes and what not...

No manufacturer allows a system such as this that doesn't work to go on
production machines.

EBA fails safe. It deactivates. That and a whole bunch of warning lights.

Ermmmm they are on the Volvo S60...

Ooooh I live in the UK, yeah, but being British...? That's something else.

In the absence of steering input, ABS keeps you pointing in the right
direction because no locked wheel or prolonged change in braking effort from
one or more tyres causes a yaw action.

www.dervman.com/ttwg.htm

Only if the driver cannot control the car. And that's why we have so many
stability control applications out there...

Agreed. Except even the stupid get driving licences.

 

EBA doesn't do it. Period. It would not be allowed to be used if it caused
accidents like this.

Imagine the law suits?

You're suggesting that we shouldn't bother with power assisted steering and
servo-assisted brakes. These also augment the driver control input in
*exactly* the same way.

No, they're not acting inappropriately. They're doing what they're
designed. But they are unable to bend the laws of phsyics. If I barrel
into Silverstone's Maggots at 95 mph, brake hard as the road drops, the back
end will waggle. It'll usually break away. The stability protection is of
limited use when the rear wheels are not in proper contact with the tarmac.

That's where the fuzzy logic is involved. It's 2FC/2, i.e., very clever
stuff. But it works from what the driver does. See my other comment about
power assisted steering.

No.

In isolation it doesn't work this way *unless* you're on a racing circuit
and you know exactly how much pressure to apply and when, thus you can thump
the pedal to achieve maximum retardation and you do it very quickly.

On the road, only fools thump the brake pedal without wishing to stop in a
hurry. It knows the difference between quick and firm rolling on the
pressure and a sudden thump. That's what the system spots. Most fools
quickly learn that if they thump the pedal of a car with EBA it stops
quicker than they *first* anticipated.

The first time one drives a new car, we learn stuff about it. Say it has a
quicker steering rack. We may oversteer the first one or two corners. Then
we learn. It's precisely the same with *any* situation.

First time I triggered the ABS in our Ka was a learning experience. Second
time I knew what to expect.

Herein is precisely why the driver in the circumstances needs to be educated
or at least try it.

As for the stopping distance and control argument, stopping distances are
slightly longer with the ABS humming away than a skilled driver without ABS
in ideal circumstances. I don't know of any driver than can hold a car at
the point just before lock up in an emergency situation such as the ones
you've described.

No more so than servo assisted brakes. Nothing an experiment can't get
over. I don't understand your concerns. It is as though you don't want to
learn about these new fangled power brakes and what not...

No manufacturer allows a system such as this that doesn't work to go on
production machines.

EBA fails safe. It deactivates. That and a whole bunch of warning lights.

Ermmmm they are on the Volvo S60...

Ooooh I live in the UK, yeah, but being British...? That's something else.

In the absence of steering input, ABS keeps you pointing in the right
direction because no locked wheel or prolonged change in braking effort from
one or more tyres causes a yaw action.

www.dervman.com/ttwg.htm

Only if the driver cannot control the car. And that's why we have so many
stability control applications out there...

Agreed. Except even the stupid get driving licences.

 

Pah, let's just use the low tech cowcatcher. Worked on the RR's for decades.

 

Pah, let's just use the low tech cowcatcher. Worked on the RR's for decades.

 

I do, a lot, I have trouble keeping my speed down on certain roads,
e.g., Palisades Interstate Parkway, so I engage cruise control at a
speed low enough to skate by the troopers whenever possible.

 

I do, a lot, I have trouble keeping my speed down on certain roads,
e.g., Palisades Interstate Parkway, so I engage cruise control at a
speed low enough to skate by the troopers whenever possible.