Manual Transmission Oil

Honda recommends the use of SAE 10w-30 Engine Oil in the gearbox. This is
also stated in the manual. Yet, their website
http://www.honda.com.au/buying+a+honda/parts/index.htm
recommends the use of MTF Plus Manual Transmission, a SAE 75-80 fluid, for
all manual transmissions.

I was also informed by Honda that all dealers in Australia use the same oil
(10w-30) for engines and manual transmissions. I called a few dealers to
verify this and found it to be true. They all said that they do not use the
SAE75-80 manual transmission fluid in this vehicle.

a) Why isn't 75w-80 fluid used in these vehicles?

b) Do you have to use 10w-30 in all Civics?

c) Is there any risk in using MTF Plus 75w-80 API GL4 fluid in a 1.5lt '94
Civic?

 

Honda's proprietary MTF may not be available in Australia, so they default
to 10W-30. Keep in mind that engine oil has worked reasonably well for most
drivers for many years, but MTF works better -- if you can find it. I
suspect motor oil is no longer suitable because of the increasing use of
slippery friction modifiers to increase fuel efficiency. These impair the
function of the synchros.

You may use either 10W-30 or MTF. MTF is preferred since it gives better
shifting feel.

Not according to Honda.

 

Because 10W-30 or MTF is specified! Would you use 10W-30 in a transmission
that specified some other lubricant?
I haven't tried it myself, but some posters have stated that the MTF
really smooths shifting.

No. Different weights were specified for different temperature conditions,
countries and years. Currently, 5W-20 is specified for new Hondas in NA.

Maybe. I'm not sure which "GL" version it is, but I've read that one of
them is harmful to brass/copper. Don't know if Honda has brass/copper
etc., so that's why I say "maybe".

 

Honda's MTF isn't 75-80... at least not as far as I can tell. The reason
that older Honda manuals state 10w30 is that the MTF is fairly new... I
think they started using it in 96 in the US. They recommend it for all
vehicles now because current 10w30 is a little different from the way it was
in 1987. I hear it is a little too "slick" (the same reason you shouldn't
use synthetic oils in the Honda tranny... too slick for the syncros to do
their job properly.)

 

Strange about the synthetic recommendation.....

I've used synthetic 10w-30 in my 93 honda civic coupe since I bought it (had 22K
km on it at that time) until I had the transmission replaced last summer (at
305K km). Always shifted smooth with no problems. The "new to me" transmission
got a fluid change to synthetic within a week and is still running strong (at
361K km).

The transmission shop was suprised as 25% of the original clutch surface was
still there. The mechanic also mentioned that he saw alot of civics between
150K to 200K km that needed a new tranny.

Scott

 

Gear oil 75w80 and engine oil at 10w30 are about the same viscosity.
Different rating systems.

--
Charles Tague
93 Honda Civic DX HB
1.6L SOHC VTEC 14.85 @ 89 mph,1.98 60 ft.
With ZEX 85 hp ZEX 13.09 @ 103 mph, 1.81 60ft.
86 Pontiac Trans Am
225/50/15 GForce Drag Radials
305 peanut cammed 15.29 @ 88 mph
http://home.cinci.rr.com/mistab0ne/

 

Why did you have to replace the transmission? A friend and I have had
Civics and Integras of various years, some with over 200,000 miles on
them and none have ever had to have the tranny replaced (all manuals).

We used Red Line MTL exclusively.

The one time I used Mobil 1, the shifting got very notchy and I was
probably damaging the synchros because the stuff is too slippery for
them to work properly.

You might also search under the term "5-speed transmisson" as there is
another fairly recent thread on this.

--- Bror Jace

 

Bror Jace, I know we see opposite sides of the Redline MTL issue.

Could you give me some info on your fluid change info. I'm thinking that has
a issue.

--
Charles Tague
93 Honda Civic DX HB
1.6L SOHC VTEC 14.85 @ 89 mph,1.98 60 ft.
With ZEX 85 hp ZEX 13.09 @ 103 mph, 1.81 60ft.
86 Pontiac Trans Am
225/50/15 GForce Drag Radials
305 peanut cammed 15.29 @ 88 mph
http://home.cinci.rr.com/mistab0ne/

 

Something within the transmission (not throwout bearing) went. "Went" means horrible grinding
noise. Not worth having the tranny rebuilt (approx $1400 CAN), so I opted for a used
transmission installed for $700 CAN.

I believe the "new to me" tranny was brought over from overseas (Japan?). That's the story the
tranny shop gave me.

Scott

 

It was listed as 75W/80 API GL4 on the Honda Australia Web site - no more
though since they turned it into another Flash infested swamp. I believe
the 75W/80 GL (IIRC approx. = a 25W/35 by engine viscosity measure)
designation is probably accurate for MTF, even the stuff sold in the U.S.
and I think they should be obliged to tell us what it is... within the
spirit of the Magnussen- Moss(?) act.

No - its' because of the reduction in anti-wear additives of engine oils in
the past few years as a nod to emissions and potential catalytic converter
damage. The current engine oils are not suitable for a transmission and
since the MTF is for trans only, they can even enhance the anti-wear
package... over what they used with engine oils.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

Which model year is that manual? In the U.S., since ~1996 Honda recommends
10W/30 engine oil only as a temporary emergency transmission fill until the
Honda MTF can be substutited.

I wonder... how the regs on engine oil compare in Australia vs. what we
have in the U.S. Due to "concerns" voiced by the U.S. auto mfrs about
catalytic converter damage due to poisoning by the ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl
Dithyo-Phosphate) anti-wear additive, it's been more or less eliminated
from engine oils in the U.S. The govt. had a hand in this when they
obliged the auto mfrs to offer extended (100K mile IIRC) warranties on
emissions equipment.

If your engine oil is the same as we get, absolutely not. Due to the
change of anti-wear additive in engine oils I'd be extremely wary about
using engine oil in a transmission now. It's possible that the new fairly
recently introduced engine oil anti-wear additives, since the "ban" on ZDDP
work OK in a transmission but I'd want to be sure.

In your situation I'd insist on the Honda MTF and in the absence of that
I'd enquire of the lubricants mfrs what they think. I know that the Honda
Aus web site used to say that the Honda MTF was 75W/80 API GL4 (IIRC it was
also on the bottle - possibly due to Australian regulations on specifying
proprietary fluids ??) so I'd think Castrol et.al. would know what's going
on here. BTW I've mentioned this 75W/80 API GL4 spec for the Honda MTF
mentioned at the Honda Australia web site here on this NG several times -
apparently nobody noticed.

I'm still also wondering how Honda gets away with the MTF specification in
the U.S., in the face of regulations here governing warranty claims and the
use of generic fluids.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

Well, yes.....Honda MTF didn't exist when the manual was printed.

 

It is a 1994 Honda Civic GLi. The manual explicity states that 10w-30 must
be used in manual transmissions.

I went to my local Honda dealer and purchased MFF Plus Manual Transmission
fluid. They sell them here in 1 litre containers, costing $15AUS each.
The bottle clear states that it is a SAE75w-80 API GL4 fluid.

 

Like, what would you like to know? Interval? Anywhere from 30,000 -
50,000 miles. My firend has gone even longer, I think.

I live in upstate NY where it can go from -30F all the way up to 100F
in the summer.

Anything else?

--- Bror Jace

 

thats exactly the info I needed.

THANKS.

I'm just seeing of I can find and similarity on the input shaft bearing
failures.

--
Charles Tague
93 Honda Civic DX HB
1.6L SOHC VTEC 14.85 @ 89 mph,1.98 60 ft.
With ZEX 85 hp ZEX 13.09 @ 103 mph, 1.81 60ft.
86 Pontiac Trans Am
225/50/15 GForce Drag Radials
305 peanut cammed 15.29 @ 88 mph
http://home.cinci.rr.com/mistab0ne/

 

Thanks.........

I'm just trying to narrow down the input shaft bearing failures I've seen.
Most, if not all have used Redline MTL.

--
Charles Tague
93 Honda Civic DX HB
1.6L SOHC VTEC 14.85 @ 89 mph,1.98 60 ft.
With ZEX 85 hp ZEX 13.09 @ 103 mph, 1.81 60ft.
86 Pontiac Trans Am
225/50/15 GForce Drag Radials
305 peanut cammed 15.29 @ 88 mph
http://home.cinci.rr.com/mistab0ne/

 

Specifically, but not exclusively, to Bror Jace:

Your postings on oil are very specific, and persuasive. I'm curious,
where did you get your knowledge? PhD Petroleum Engineering, School of
Hard Knocks, or something in between?? Since buying my Element four
months ago I scoured the internet to get some specific info on break-in
oil, with little success. The manual says first oil change at 10 K; the
dealer sent me a letter saying 5K; the counter guys said 3K, I did it at
2325K; one dealer said there is no break-in oil in use anymore, another
said emphatically that there is, but could not be in any way specific. I
saw your post on molybdenum and am comforted by that.

Do you have knowledge on automatic transmission oils as well? My tranny
is auto, and having run at highway speed 'Out West' in 100 plus weather
for extensive miles, wonder about an early oil change (less than 30K)???

Thanks in advance

Sam

 

Is MTL what is recommended?
I just poured some Redline 10w40 into mine, since it is supposed to use engine
oil.
|
|I'm just trying to narrow down the input shaft bearing failures I've seen.
|Most, if not all have used Redline MTL.
|
|--
|Charles Tague
|93 Honda Civic DX HB
|1.6L SOHC VTEC 14.85 @ 89 mph,1.98 60 ft.
|With ZEX 85 hp ZEX 13.09 @ 103 mph, 1.81 60ft.
|86 Pontiac Trans Am
|225/50/15 GForce Drag Radials
|305 peanut cammed 15.29 @ 88 mph
|http://home.cinci.rr.com/mistab0ne/
||> On 28 Aug 2003 20:43:10 -0700, (Bror Jace) wrote:
|>
||> >> Bror Jace, I know we see opposite sides of the Redline MTL issue.
|> >>
|> >> Could you give me some info on your fluid change info. I'm thinking
|that has
|> >> a issue.
|> >
|> >Like, what would you like to know? Interval? Anywhere from 30,000 -
|> >50,000 miles. My firend has gone even longer, I think.
|> >
|>
|>
|> Mista Bone: Just to add, I had a 1994 Acura Integra 5-spd that has
|> 91,000 miles on it when I traded it. I replaced the tranny fluid with
|> Redline MTL at about 10,000 miles and then at 30,000, 60,000, and
|> 90,000 miles.
|>
|> I traded the car soon thereafter the last interval, but the tranny
|> shifted very smooth.
|>
|> This is near Denver, CO.
|>
|>
|> -
|> --
|> Curtis Newton
|>
|> http://surf.to/cnewton
|> <delete remove-me. to respond to email>
|> ICQ: 4899169
|
|

Rex in Fort Worth

 

The CRX I just bought - with noisy bearing is a 181K mile unit that apparently
had the original lubricant in it.
|
|I'm just trying to narrow down the input shaft bearing failures I've seen.
|Most, if not all have used Redline MTL.
|
|--
|Charles Tague
|93 Honda Civic DX HB
|1.6L SOHC VTEC 14.85 @ 89 mph,1.98 60 ft.
|With ZEX 85 hp ZEX 13.09 @ 103 mph, 1.81 60ft.
|86 Pontiac Trans Am
|225/50/15 GForce Drag Radials
|305 peanut cammed 15.29 @ 88 mph
|http://home.cinci.rr.com/mistab0ne/
||> On 28 Aug 2003 20:43:10 -0700, (Bror Jace) wrote:
|>
||> >> Bror Jace, I know we see opposite sides of the Redline MTL issue.
|> >>
|> >> Could you give me some info on your fluid change info. I'm thinking
|that has
|> >> a issue.
|> >
|> >Like, what would you like to know? Interval? Anywhere from 30,000 -
|> >50,000 miles. My firend has gone even longer, I think.
|> >
|>
|>
|> Mista Bone: Just to add, I had a 1994 Acura Integra 5-spd that has
|> 91,000 miles on it when I traded it. I replaced the tranny fluid with
|> Redline MTL at about 10,000 miles and then at 30,000, 60,000, and
|> 90,000 miles.
|>
|> I traded the car soon thereafter the last interval, but the tranny
|> shifted very smooth.
|>
|> This is near Denver, CO.
|>
|>
|> -
|> --
|> Curtis Newton
|>
|> http://surf.to/cnewton
|> <delete remove-me. to respond to email>
|> ICQ: 4899169
|
|

Rex in Fort Worth

 

** Here 'n there. I have no formal background. I'm just a 2-decade
DIYer and I soak up info on oil & lubrication like a sponge. >:^)

Since buying my Element four

** We have some info on Honda break-in oils and their OEM stuff as
well at Bob's place. (U.S. & Canada versions)

** Sorry, I'm not an auto fan and have little experience with ATFs ...
but others on Bob's site do.

Here's Bob's URL:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi

** Please search around (using the "search" feature) first before
posting new topics/threads.

** Bror Jace