my civic and its timing belt

I have been reading all the messages relating to the infernal pully
bolt. What I have read would frighten the pope.

I was wondering if if would be possible to use a bolt breaker on the
pully bolt and simply replace it with a new one?

I know bolt breakers are fairly cheap and how much could HONDA CHARGE
FOR A NEW NUT?



Regards
Frank

 

Are you sure you are looking at the right bolt? My Factory manual says
torque to 180 lb-ft.

 

The bolt is a pretty stout one. It has to be, considering the waling on them
we are doing without them moving! But if the head breaks off, there is the
question of what it would take to remove the remains from inside the
crankshaft. I have heard speculation that the threads are loc-tited, but I
doubt it. They are just beastly tight. It would be a real risk to commit to
removing the bolt body without damaging the crank threads.

Today I got a regulator and guage to put at the impact wrench. I haven't
tried it on the bolt yet, but the guage indicates I get 20 psi drop through
the 3/8 inch hose when I put 90 lbs on the hose at the tank and run the
impact driver no-load. Now I can run the hose at 120-140 psi and regulate it
to 90 at the tool.

Another piece of the puzzle is the restraint of the pulley. I still expect
to just use the gearbox and brakes to backstop the impact driver.

Mike

 

why don't y'all just buy the freakin' tool? it's a damned sight cheaper
than paying a shop to change your belts - which is what you want, right?
and more importantly, it's a damned sight cheaper than messing up your
drivetrain by trying to hold the crank through the transmission! heck,
the number of people on this group doing this job, why not just buy one
& resell it here each time the next person needs to use it???

it's one of these two:
http://www.etoolcart.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=697
http://www.etoolcart.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1217

people freak when they're getting 90 degrees of windup trying to loosen
the thing - well, no kidding - they're bending the crank!!! the only
reason the chuffing great industrial air tool works is because it has a
high /rate/ of torque application which works against the momentum of
the crank, not that needs to apply its full power. again, get the
proper tool!!!

 

People should do fine with a practical tool like a crowbar on the starter
teeth (manuals transmission.) For autos, go for the flywheel with a fit tool.
Or put a hole on the pulley and secure it to a chain. Here's a better one,
jam a whole roll of sisal rope into the cylinder near the pulley. The problem
with a special tool is its impractical nature. Use once and throw out and
then relying on another individual or organization, since most men don't
like to ask for directions. There's no chance of bending the crank with
human muscle. Even if you're using hydraulics force there has never been
proof of damage other than the motor mount jumping out. But 90 degrees
is almost impossible with what most of us are capable of. Special tools are
the safest route but at least don't pay 60-$70 for it. 20-$30 is about right,
like this one.

http://www.autopart.com/TOOLS/TOOLSMAIN/tool/T_A812.htm

 

i've seen that shear teeth.

the pulley's already designed with holding features - why not use them?

that works, but i'd only use it on a junker i didn't care about.

don't care. it's still cheaper than paying through the nose for an
underpaid-&-don't-care kid to do a lousy job at the local dealership.

you're talking permanent bending. i'm talking elastic windup. read
back in this thread and earlier ones - caroline's comes to mind - for
windup horror stories.

that works for 92 up, not the excellent 88-91's.

 

Works on some Acura Legends and 1982-4 Hondas.

 

There mostly 90-100K. I've sucessfully disassemble/
reassemble Honda starter solenoids, fuel pumps,
alternators, compressors, transmissions, fuel
injectors and etc without any hints of cursing.
Maybe this is the key.

I believe you can secure them.

 

Impossible if done right.

That's a starter problem.

Am I the only one who loves drilling holes? Plus, holder shipment takes days.

Our intent was on saving.

I've done belts the 88-91. They come with pulley holes which
I immobilize with a cheap rod, why buy these $60-70 tools?

 

I don't think the crank bends. Cranks are mighty brittle and may break, but
I've never heard of one bending.

The 500 ft-lb impact should be the correct removal tool as long as I get 90
psi to it at the tool, and the Honda holding tool isn't available locally (I
checked). With the impact driver and the manual tranny, holding shouldn't be
a big problem anyway. My son works today but we might get a crack at it this
evening. At this stage, we only want to break the bolt loose and retorque to
spec so we have a clear shot at completing the job when his oil seals come
in.

Mike

 

believe it or not, cranks are elastic, just like humungous great crow
bar like 30mm sway bars are elastic. we're not talking about permanent
plastic deformation, but reversible elastic windup under high torque.
[in physical terms, it's impossible for any component to take any load
without a degree of elastic deformation.]

that's why there's online suppliers of tools - as well as honda parts.

so there's still time to order the right tool? how does the cost of the
big impact driver compare to the holder?

nothing personal mike - it's just that i used to be a mechanic and it
used to frustrate the heck out of me when someone came in with a vehicle
they'd fubared, then swear bind they'd never touched it. even though
their knuckes were still bleeding and fresh blood was all over the
broken whateveritwas. and then they'd complain about the extra labor
necessary to get their mess sorted out!

believe me, i have a patent on being cheap. i /don't/ have a patent on
costing myself more than i "saved" by not doing a job right & fouling it up.

now that i've finished ranting, yes, the big impact will definitely do
the job if you have a big enough air supply. often, a lot of home
systems just don't have the capacity to cope with the big pressure drops
of larger tools.

 

don't ever touch one of my cars. _ever_. you ever heard of balancing?

"saving" means after the job is done, not excluding the cost of fixing
stuff that's been messed up.

because they load the pulley in the way it was designed, not lever it in
some oblique mode that may or may not bend the pulley off center. not
to mention the time involved messing about with a cludge.

bottom line burt, it's your car - you do whatever you want. but if you
came to me after you'd messed something up, i'd charge you through the
nose so bad, you'd think paying for the right tool was a privilege.

 

Each side will get a precise hole. I would never drill holes unless
they're mine, probably will elect not to do so, unless out of options.

It's a free country, each independent person will do as they wish to their
vehicle. My 16-year old 260K Honda has never need outside consulting.
The only costly parts I've replace are the water pump and battery. I
probably shouldn't reseat a new bearing and machine seals for my water
pump but what the heck, I'll try it out anyway in about 10-years and making
sure it'll continue to stay away from outside consulting.

 

Hey, you're the one who characterizes these as horror stories.

If the torque required is about 500 ft-lbs, and with some other assumptions,
yes, the rotation of the socket and extensions (over 20 inches in length,
altogether) from one end to the other will be around 75 degrees. Plus or minus,
of course, given the assumptions. The actual experience I had validated this as
an approximation.

IMO, my pulley bolt removal went really well, once I had the right pulley holder
tool (custom design by Eric with modifications by Caroline for her 91 Civic's
slightly different pulley). I credit doing a lot of research here, first. I've
used my home-made tool twice since and it's fantastic. (Though of course freeing
the bolt a few times within a month or so means the bolt hadn't been through a
lot of heat cycles and so wasn't as hard to free after the first loosening.)

I'm not sure whether you mean literally bending the crankshaft. I estimate 10
degrees to 90 degrees of twist may be necessary, but the only thing that is
moving (twisting before the bolt comes free) are the extensions and possibly
deep socket. The stress comes mostly from twisting, not bending.

Not using a jack to support the extensions will likely result in something
failing. I talked to a couple of yahoo guys in one of my auto classes who were
trying to free a pulley bolt on their IIRC 98 Civic, and they bragged about
breaking two Crafstman half-inch extensions. "Did you support the extensions
with a jack?" I asked. "Um, no.... " So of course bending stress and twisting
stress added together in the extensions and busted them right apart.

Some people (boys) need to be cautioned about this. They're the horror stories.
Not an effin' experienced woman mechanical engineer who's never driven her car
over 80 mph in her life. ;-)

Anyone wanting the "custom tool" recipe for many or all of the 88-91's, go to
www.groups.google.com and search for the following:

{ "surveying stake" pulley author:caroline group:rec.autos.makers.honda }

Omit the lock washers. The hose is fine as a spacer to protect the pulley lip.

 

That's the direction I'll go. Thanks for the link, Burt! The better the
backstop on the pulley, the better I figure the impact will work. My
daughter has a '93 Accord - the timing belt was replaced 3 years, 50K miles
ago and it has an auto tranny.

I'll check back in after the tool arrives and we get it scheduled.

Mike

 

burt, i honestly don't mean this to come across like a bitchfest, even
if it sounds like one. drilling opposed holes is pretty random as to
whether it's going to preserve balance. castings, such as pulley
wheels, tend to have voids or porosity that can leave the piece of
non-uniform density. that's why they need to be balanced before the
engine is assembled. and because of this different density, you may be
drilling solid material out of one side, but porous out of the other,
hence the balance is now lost. pretty sure you know the effects
imbalance can have on bearing life, seals, etc. true, honda castings
are pretty good, and you may get lucky, but in principle, drilling is
really not a good plan.

 

yes, and you get windup through the engine & transmission components too.

no, elastic windup.

how about hitting the red line? c'mon caroline, consider it an
[engineering] exercise in envelope determination!

 

The pulley is keyed to its shaft. Immobilizing the pulley immobilizes the
crankshaft.

Thus the torque applied by the technician or DIYer is resisted by the pulley
holding tool, which in turn is held immobile by the ground (in the case of my
and many others' design).

snip

I don't understand this culture of recklessness. I have too much to do in life
to take these kind of risks.

Great fuel mileage, not speed, is a much bigger thrill for me.

Just saying.

Caroline
"Don't get metaphorical on me... Well, you could, and you'd be right, but let's
keep this a PG-13 group."

 

absolutely! it's the folks trying to hold the pulley through the
transmission with the brakes on that are making me cringe.

so, party at your place then? just kidding.

 

Sorry I didn't get back to you.
A 3/4 air gun sets around 750 ft lbs I believe. It was a used one on the
snap-on truck, a central pneumatics I believe. A larger gun has bigger
hammers, and doesn't beat you up as much as a 1/2 inch gun. more force goes
into the socket. Working in a auto shop, we occasionally get the stubborn
bolts, and on occasion have tried everyone's gun in the shop. Sometimes some
will work where another one won't. the 3/4 has always worked. Once the shop
downtown from us called asking if I still had such a gun, they were fighting
a crank bolt for several hours with a huge compressor and a bunch of 1/2
inch guns. No success. Big Bertha did the job with no problem
I wouldn't use heat on a crank. See if you can find a big gun and give it a
try. Of coarse air supply is important, but usually on a small compressor,
the initial trigger pull and the first 5 seconds will tell you if you are
going to win.