My Si has a DX motor!

jim beam · Jan 26, 2007

Dave said:

Dave said:

Dave Garrett wrote:
I think I posted about this when my timing belt was changed a couple of
years ago; the short version was that my usual mechanic told me after
he'd finished the work that he thought my 90 CRX Si had a 1.5L engine
instead of the usual 1.6, because the timing belt for a 1.6 didn't fit,
but the belt from a 1.5 did. He claimed to have called a friend at a
Honda dealer who told him that 1.5L engines had been installed in some
Si models.
<snip>

that's b.s. the only way this happens is either if the car is
crashed/stolen parted out, then later rebuilt again with the cheap
motor, or the d16 blew and a cheapo d15 block was used as replacement.
whatever the deal, it's /way/ too late to do anything about the person
that did the work. if you want you can get d16's as jdm replacements
for not an incredible amount of money. depending on local emissions
laws, you can maybe get away with a zc motor - some of those are sweet -
cheap too.
I thought it sounded like BS at the time too. I don't know enough about
the details of the differences between the two engines - do they use the
same block, or is it significantly different?
Click to expand...

i don't do rebuilds so i don't know for sure, but afaik, the blocks and
heads are identical. the crank is slightly longer stroke [to give the
extra few cc's of capacity] and the cam is a little more punchy, but
other than that, they're the same.
Click to expand...

That's what I was wondering, if the block was the same and the longer
stroke was from a different crank. Thanks for confirming that.

are you sure?

are you sure?

yes & yes.

not if you use a cable transmission.

define "professional"! if you've had this crx for a while and know its
history, stick with it. otherwise you have no idea what you're getting
into. the most important thing is to find someone to do the swap that's
not going to rip you. by the sound of it, half the stuff you've just
mentioned is coming from a source that's trying to set you up to put
their kids through college.
Click to expand...

Well, I haven't talked to anyone yet about doing this, I'm just at the
point of doing research online to see what's involved. Most of the swap
sites I've looked at state that new motor mounts are required to plug a
B16 into a CRX, and the favored choice seems to be Hasport.
Click to expand...

i haven't done a b16 swap so am not an authority, but some of the motor
mount stuff is more to do with having the lump anchored more firmly
rather than /needing/ to do it for positioning. if you can, check honda
part numbers and compare.

As far as
axles, again, given the significant power increase, I've not seen too
many recommendations for using the D16/D15 axles, and I was also under
the impression that they didn't bolt directly up to a B16.
Click to expand...

on some of the hybrids, there can be shaft length differences which
necessitate different shafts - don't get suckered into the need to do it
for the extra power thing. /any/ stock shaft the right size will do the
job - the question is, how long it lasts. unless you're racing all the
time, stock shafts will be fine.

But yeah, your point about "professional" is well-taken - there's no
real way to know if modifications of this sort were done correctly
unless you've done them yourself or you have a shop you can implicitly
trust to do the job you ask them to do without screwing you over. I'm
definitely not interested in building a show car, or trying to squeeze
as much power as possible out of a setup that spends more time being
tuned and repaired than being driven. I'm more interested in building
the CRX that it seems like Honda everywhere but in the US, namely, a
naturally-aspirated, B16-powered one with somewhere between 160-200hp
that will be driven daily. However...
Click to expand...

zc. twin overhead cam.
http://www.nippon-motors.com/honda.htm
google for others.
getting 200hp out of a 1.6 is hard work and i'm not aware of any stock
solutions that do that. custom solutions and/or turbos will cost you,
but they'll do the job. and if power is what you want, why stop at 200hp?
http://www.theoldone.com/articles/badtothebone/

find out if the zc will pass your local emissions laws, then do the zc
swap. that motor is cheap, hella fast [160hp from a 1600 motor], and a
straight bolt-in. then you can keep everything else. and be careful
who you ask!!! talk with a smog person. here in ca, we have "test
only" stations that are forbidden to do work on the vehicles so have no
interest in trying to sell you on stuff you don't need. my local guy is
a honda fan and was delighted to me about what i can and can't do for
egr systems if i want to do mods without getting the vehicle refereed.

one last thing: if you want to be cheap, just get the si cam and swap it
into your d15. you're only losing 97cc's. you could probably do that
yourself. better yet, get an hot aftermarket cam. no problems with
a/c, vtec, transmission, mounts, etc., etc. do it with the engine still
in the car.
Click to expand...

Again, good points. A ZC would certainly be easier, and a lot cheaper,
but I assume you're talking about a tuned one? I've never heard of a
stock ZC with 160hp.
Click to expand...

ok, maybe i was confusing it with some of the b16's...

I'm in Texas, so the smog laws are not nearly as
much of an issue as they are in CA.
zc!

I'm still wondering exactly what it is that I have under the hood in my
car - it's starting to sound like someone blew the original 1.6 motor
and either swapped in a D15 or used a D15 block and crank with perhaps
some D16 internals to get it running again.
Click to expand...

that's a lot of work - they probably just threw in the d15 - as is
indicated by the timing belt.

Thanks for the advice - maybe I'll start with a ZC swap and see how long
it takes me to get bored with that.

Dave
Click to expand...

if you're going to go fast, consider your ability to stop appropriately,
especially if the lump is heavier. integra calipers/10.25" brake disks
are bolt-on, and the 15/16" master cylinder and larger brake booster
from the 90-91 civic ex has the extra volume necessary for the bigger
front pistons with no brake line bending.

jim beam · Jan 26, 2007

Dave said:

Dave said:

Dave Garrett wrote:
I think I posted about this when my timing belt was changed a couple of
years ago; the short version was that my usual mechanic told me after
he'd finished the work that he thought my 90 CRX Si had a 1.5L engine
instead of the usual 1.6, because the timing belt for a 1.6 didn't fit,
but the belt from a 1.5 did. He claimed to have called a friend at a
Honda dealer who told him that 1.5L engines had been installed in some
Si models.
<snip>

that's b.s. the only way this happens is either if the car is
crashed/stolen parted out, then later rebuilt again with the cheap
motor, or the d16 blew and a cheapo d15 block was used as replacement.
whatever the deal, it's /way/ too late to do anything about the person
that did the work. if you want you can get d16's as jdm replacements
for not an incredible amount of money. depending on local emissions
laws, you can maybe get away with a zc motor - some of those are sweet -
cheap too.
I thought it sounded like BS at the time too. I don't know enough about
the details of the differences between the two engines - do they use the
same block, or is it significantly different?
Click to expand...

i don't do rebuilds so i don't know for sure, but afaik, the blocks and
heads are identical. the crank is slightly longer stroke [to give the
extra few cc's of capacity] and the cam is a little more punchy, but
other than that, they're the same.
Click to expand...

That's what I was wondering, if the block was the same and the longer
stroke was from a different crank. Thanks for confirming that.

are you sure?

are you sure?

yes & yes.

not if you use a cable transmission.

define "professional"! if you've had this crx for a while and know its
history, stick with it. otherwise you have no idea what you're getting
into. the most important thing is to find someone to do the swap that's
not going to rip you. by the sound of it, half the stuff you've just
mentioned is coming from a source that's trying to set you up to put
their kids through college.
Click to expand...

Well, I haven't talked to anyone yet about doing this, I'm just at the
point of doing research online to see what's involved. Most of the swap
sites I've looked at state that new motor mounts are required to plug a
B16 into a CRX, and the favored choice seems to be Hasport.
Click to expand...

i haven't done a b16 swap so am not an authority, but some of the motor
mount stuff is more to do with having the lump anchored more firmly
rather than /needing/ to do it for positioning. if you can, check honda
part numbers and compare.

As far as
axles, again, given the significant power increase, I've not seen too
many recommendations for using the D16/D15 axles, and I was also under
the impression that they didn't bolt directly up to a B16.
Click to expand...

on some of the hybrids, there can be shaft length differences which
necessitate different shafts - don't get suckered into the need to do it
for the extra power thing. /any/ stock shaft the right size will do the
job - the question is, how long it lasts. unless you're racing all the
time, stock shafts will be fine.

But yeah, your point about "professional" is well-taken - there's no
real way to know if modifications of this sort were done correctly
unless you've done them yourself or you have a shop you can implicitly
trust to do the job you ask them to do without screwing you over. I'm
definitely not interested in building a show car, or trying to squeeze
as much power as possible out of a setup that spends more time being
tuned and repaired than being driven. I'm more interested in building
the CRX that it seems like Honda everywhere but in the US, namely, a
naturally-aspirated, B16-powered one with somewhere between 160-200hp
that will be driven daily. However...
Click to expand...

zc. twin overhead cam.
http://www.nippon-motors.com/honda.htm
google for others.
getting 200hp out of a 1.6 is hard work and i'm not aware of any stock
solutions that do that. custom solutions and/or turbos will cost you,
but they'll do the job. and if power is what you want, why stop at 200hp?
http://www.theoldone.com/articles/badtothebone/

find out if the zc will pass your local emissions laws, then do the zc
swap. that motor is cheap, hella fast [160hp from a 1600 motor], and a
straight bolt-in. then you can keep everything else. and be careful
who you ask!!! talk with a smog person. here in ca, we have "test
only" stations that are forbidden to do work on the vehicles so have no
interest in trying to sell you on stuff you don't need. my local guy is
a honda fan and was delighted to me about what i can and can't do for
egr systems if i want to do mods without getting the vehicle refereed.

one last thing: if you want to be cheap, just get the si cam and swap it
into your d15. you're only losing 97cc's. you could probably do that
yourself. better yet, get an hot aftermarket cam. no problems with
a/c, vtec, transmission, mounts, etc., etc. do it with the engine still
in the car.
Click to expand...

Again, good points. A ZC would certainly be easier, and a lot cheaper,
but I assume you're talking about a tuned one? I've never heard of a
stock ZC with 160hp.
Click to expand...

ok, maybe i was confusing it with some of the b16's...

I'm in Texas, so the smog laws are not nearly as
much of an issue as they are in CA.
zc!

I'm still wondering exactly what it is that I have under the hood in my
car - it's starting to sound like someone blew the original 1.6 motor
and either swapped in a D15 or used a D15 block and crank with perhaps
some D16 internals to get it running again.
Click to expand...

that's a lot of work - they probably just threw in the d15 - as is
indicated by the timing belt.

Thanks for the advice - maybe I'll start with a ZC swap and see how long
it takes me to get bored with that.

Dave
Click to expand...

if you're going to go fast, consider your ability to stop appropriately,
especially if the lump is heavier. integra calipers/10.25" brake disks
are bolt-on, and the 15/16" master cylinder and larger brake booster
from the 90-91 civic ex has the extra volume necessary for the bigger
front pistons with no brake line bending.

Dave Garrett · Jan 26, 2007

You've got mail - I didn't want to post the number on the net, but feel
free to post the results here.

I had a Carfax account briefly several years ago, and at that time I
remember running a report for my car, but I don't recall seeing anything
unusual then. It's been a while, however, and my memory could certainly
be faulty, so I'll be interested to see what it says.
Click to expand...

Thanks to Dan for running a Carfax report on my VIN - contrary to what I
mentioned in my email to him, I read it a bit too quickly at first; I
thought the second entry was when I'd purchased the car, but it's really
the fourth one:

10/25/1990 125 Texas
Motor Vehicle Dept.
Houston, TX
Title #28972690 Title or registration issued
First owner reported
Loan or lien reported

06/08/1993 Texas
Motor Vehicle Dept.
Houston, TX
Title #39182726 Title or registration issued
Loan or lien reported

08/19/1993 29,498 Service Plan Co.
Houston, TX Service Contract Issued

10/06/1993 Texas
Motor Vehicle Dept.
Houston, TX
Title #40482739 Title or registration issued
Loan or lien reported

The fourth entry is when I purchased the car. So it certainly seems like
something fishy could've happened during the time period between the
second and third entries. Also interesting is that the Carfax record
refers to the car as a "1990 Honda Civic 1500 CRX Si", despite listing
the engine description as "1.6L L4 FI".

Dave
Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

E Meyer · Jan 27, 2007

As I said in my first post, it's entirely possible the dealer had no
idea about this - as jimbeam said, it's difficult to tell the difference
between the two engines externally. I'll admit there's no way of knowing
now, and so some of my previous comments were probably ill-advised; I
shouldn't be accusing the dealer of bad faith without proof.

What I have a problem with is *if* the dealer knew, and knowingly
misrepresented the car as an Si when it did not have an Si engine. I'm
well aware that in "reality", used car dealers screw customers every
day.

Dave
Click to expand...

So, to make sure I understand this: You have owned this car for ** 15 **
years and just now you find out it doesn't have the engine you thought it
had and you are all bent out of shape about it? I assume you test drove it
**15** years ago and were satisfied with the power it had before you bought
it?

Edmunds.com lists the current trade-in value of a 1990 CRX Si at $704.
Changing the engine would cost more than the car is worth and result in a
car that is still 17 years old and isn't worth any more than $704.
Click to expand...

E Meyer · Jan 27, 2007

As I said in my first post, it's entirely possible the dealer had no
idea about this - as jimbeam said, it's difficult to tell the difference
between the two engines externally. I'll admit there's no way of knowing
now, and so some of my previous comments were probably ill-advised; I
shouldn't be accusing the dealer of bad faith without proof.

What I have a problem with is *if* the dealer knew, and knowingly
misrepresented the car as an Si when it did not have an Si engine. I'm
well aware that in "reality", used car dealers screw customers every
day.

Dave
Click to expand...

So, to make sure I understand this: You have owned this car for ** 15 **
years and just now you find out it doesn't have the engine you thought it
had and you are all bent out of shape about it? I assume you test drove it
**15** years ago and were satisfied with the power it had before you bought
it?

Edmunds.com lists the current trade-in value of a 1990 CRX Si at $704.
Changing the engine would cost more than the car is worth and result in a
car that is still 17 years old and isn't worth any more than $704.
Click to expand...

jim beam · Jan 27, 2007

E said:

So, to make sure I understand this: You have owned this car for ** 15 **
years and just now you find out it doesn't have the engine you thought it
had and you are all bent out of shape about it? I assume you test drove it
**15** years ago and were satisfied with the power it had before you bought
it?

Edmunds.com lists the current trade-in value of a 1990 CRX Si at $704.
Changing the engine would cost more than the car is worth and result in a
car that is still 17 years old and isn't worth any more than $704.
Click to expand...

buddy, come to the san francisco bay area, list a stock crx si for sale
at $704 and tell me how many calls you get on it. your phone will ring
off the hook for months afterwards. $704? that's a complete joke - i
don't care /what/ edmunds say.

jim beam · Jan 27, 2007

E said:

So, to make sure I understand this: You have owned this car for ** 15 **
years and just now you find out it doesn't have the engine you thought it
had and you are all bent out of shape about it? I assume you test drove it
**15** years ago and were satisfied with the power it had before you bought
it?

Edmunds.com lists the current trade-in value of a 1990 CRX Si at $704.
Changing the engine would cost more than the car is worth and result in a
car that is still 17 years old and isn't worth any more than $704.
Click to expand...

buddy, come to the san francisco bay area, list a stock crx si for sale
at $704 and tell me how many calls you get on it. your phone will ring
off the hook for months afterwards. $704? that's a complete joke - i
don't care /what/ edmunds say.

Grumpy AuContraire · Jan 27, 2007

jim said:

buddy, come to the san francisco bay area, list a stock crx si for sale
at $704 and tell me how many calls you get on it. your phone will ring
off the hook for months afterwards. $704? that's a complete joke - i
don't care /what/ edmunds say.
Click to expand...

Hell, even my '82 Civic beater has a low retail of over $1K.

OTOH, how can someone have a car for that long and not be aware of what
exactly is in it???

JT

Grumpy AuContraire · Jan 27, 2007

jim said:

buddy, come to the san francisco bay area, list a stock crx si for sale
at $704 and tell me how many calls you get on it. your phone will ring
off the hook for months afterwards. $704? that's a complete joke - i
don't care /what/ edmunds say.
Click to expand...

Hell, even my '82 Civic beater has a low retail of over $1K.

OTOH, how can someone have a car for that long and not be aware of what
exactly is in it???

JT

E. Meyer · Jan 28, 2007

jim beam said:

buddy, come to the san francisco bay area, list a stock crx si for sale at
$704 and tell me how many calls you get on it. your phone will ring off
the hook for months afterwards. $704? that's a complete joke - i don't
care /what/ edmunds say.
Click to expand...

I can't speak for San Francisco, but around here (Dallas area) I have found
the Edmunds numbers to be a maximum you can only aspire to. You did notice
that it is the trade-in value, not suggested retail? My experience has been
if you drive into a dealer with a 17 year old car of any type or pedigree,
the offer will be about $50.

E. Meyer · Jan 28, 2007

jim beam said:

buddy, come to the san francisco bay area, list a stock crx si for sale at
$704 and tell me how many calls you get on it. your phone will ring off
the hook for months afterwards. $704? that's a complete joke - i don't
care /what/ edmunds say.
Click to expand...

I can't speak for San Francisco, but around here (Dallas area) I have found
the Edmunds numbers to be a maximum you can only aspire to. You did notice
that it is the trade-in value, not suggested retail? My experience has been
if you drive into a dealer with a 17 year old car of any type or pedigree,
the offer will be about $50.

jim beam · Jan 28, 2007

E. Meyer said:

I can't speak for San Francisco, but around here (Dallas area) I have found
the Edmunds numbers to be a maximum you can only aspire to. You did notice
that it is the trade-in value, not suggested retail? My experience has been
if you drive into a dealer with a 17 year old car of any type or pedigree,
the offer will be about $50.
Click to expand...

yeah, and all the service techs take them home to sell on the private
market for a good deal more. except the crx's - they keep those. the
dealer near where i live always has a bunch of crx's out the back where
the staff park.

jim beam · Jan 28, 2007

E. Meyer said:

I can't speak for San Francisco, but around here (Dallas area) I have found
the Edmunds numbers to be a maximum you can only aspire to. You did notice
that it is the trade-in value, not suggested retail? My experience has been
if you drive into a dealer with a 17 year old car of any type or pedigree,
the offer will be about $50.
Click to expand...

yeah, and all the service techs take them home to sell on the private
market for a good deal more. except the crx's - they keep those. the
dealer near where i live always has a bunch of crx's out the back where
the staff park.

Michael Pardee · Jan 28, 2007

Grumpy AuContraire said:

OTOH, how can someone have a car for that long and not be aware of what
exactly is in it???

JT
Click to expand...

And does it matter now, if it wasn't a problem all those years?

Michael Pardee · Jan 28, 2007

Grumpy AuContraire said:

OTOH, how can someone have a car for that long and not be aware of what
exactly is in it???

JT
Click to expand...

And does it matter now, if it wasn't a problem all those years?

Grumpy AuContraire · Jan 28, 2007

Michael said:

And does it matter now, if it wasn't a problem all those years?
Click to expand...

If it were me... I wouldn't even admit it!

<G>

JT

Grumpy AuContraire · Jan 28, 2007

Michael said:

And does it matter now, if it wasn't a problem all those years?
Click to expand...

If it were me... I wouldn't even admit it!

<G>

JT

jim beam · Jan 28, 2007

Grumpy said:

If it were me... I wouldn't even admit it!

<G>

JT
Click to expand...

the thing i find interesting is the fact that it's clearly not been an
issue all this time. i've just got myself another crx, 1990 dx, and it
absolutely flies. i'm sure that upgrading from 2pfi to 4pfi would
improve performance further, but i wonder how much difference there is
between a "good" d15 and a "not so good" d16. since there's always
variance in output from engine to engine - speculating, you could
therefore argue that the difference could be approaching that of the
variance "noise".

jim beam · Jan 28, 2007

Grumpy said:

If it were me... I wouldn't even admit it!

<G>

JT
Click to expand...

the thing i find interesting is the fact that it's clearly not been an
issue all this time. i've just got myself another crx, 1990 dx, and it
absolutely flies. i'm sure that upgrading from 2pfi to 4pfi would
improve performance further, but i wonder how much difference there is
between a "good" d15 and a "not so good" d16. since there's always
variance in output from engine to engine - speculating, you could
therefore argue that the difference could be approaching that of the
variance "noise".

Jim Yanik · Jan 28, 2007

the thing i find interesting is the fact that it's clearly not been an
issue all this time. i've just got myself another crx, 1990 dx, and it
absolutely flies.
Click to expand...

Didya check first to see what motor was in it? ;-)

i'm sure that upgrading from 2pfi to 4pfi would
improve performance further, but i wonder how much difference there is
between a "good" d15 and a "not so good" d16. since there's always
variance in output from engine to engine - speculating, you could
therefore argue that the difference could be approaching that of the
variance "noise".
Click to expand...

Wasn't it Smokey Yunick who said "there's no substitute for cubic inches"?

you will get more torque from more displacement.

My Si has a DX motor!

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My Si has a DX motor!

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