oil filter drain-back?

Discussion in 'General Motoring' started by jim beam, Aug 19, 2007.

  1. jim beam

    jim beam Guest

    it's been ages since i've tried many other brands of filters, but maybe
    y'all can let me know...

    has anyone here done an oil filter drain-back test on their honda?
    basically, when changing oil, rather than bring the motor up to temp,
    then drain immediately, bring it up to temp, then drain after 30-60
    minutes while still warm, but having left time for everything to run
    back to the oil pan.

    i find that invariably, honda branded filters are empty after this time.
    i would expect them to still be full of oil if the one-way valve were
    working properly. similarly, i've tried this with denso, and they empty
    out too. cheapo woolmort supertech filters otoh retain oil perfectly.

    i used to do this "test" unintentionally with honda filters, more
    because i wanted to minimize spillage than anything else. but since
    messing about with the supertechs, not a single one has drained.

    what do others find with different brands?

    [i was using the supertechs as an experiment - i read that the filter
    media was very high quality. they do seem to keep oil looking clearer
    longer, but that's not scientifically assessed, just eyeballed.]
     
    jim beam, Aug 19, 2007
    #1
  2. jim beam

    Tegger Guest



    That's odd, because I find Honda filters retain oil very well, remaining
    full long past shutdown.

    Your primary source of drainback is NOT the anti-drainback flap, but the
    filter medium itself. The Honda medium is dense enough that oil has
    trouble flowing through it except under pressure, so once the center
    pipe drains, in does not refill with oil from the dirty side.

    Too many aftermarket filters have looser media that allow oil to flow
    while not under pressure. These will drain the dirty side to half
    capacity (or less) after shutdown.

    A quick test for next time you do oil changes:
    Remove the filter, dump any remaining oil out of the center pipe, then
    place the filter on the ground, open end up. You should find aftermarket
    filters will gradually refill the center pipe after sitting for a time,
    while Honda-branded ones won't.
     
    Tegger, Aug 19, 2007
    #2
  3. jim beam

    Graham W Guest

    Also, perhaps weigh a new one and see what it weighs after you
    change it out. There will be some increment from the crud and
    the wetted surfaces, of course.
     
    Graham W, Aug 19, 2007
    #3
  4. jim beam

    jim beam Guest

    doesn't compute. only if the media is utterly clogged could that
    happen. and a filter that only flows under pressure is a scary thing.

    if removed shortly after shutdown, honda filters do indeed continue to
    equalize levels, but as i stated earlier, i've found that honda filters
    always drain when left on the block for 30-60 minutes. that could
    /only/ be something to do with the drain-back valve. this is something
    i've found to be consistent over years and different honda filter batches.
     
    jim beam, Aug 19, 2007
    #4
  5. jim beam

    jim beam Guest

    have to compare wetted new and wetted old for that. but i doubt that
    all the contaminants from 10k miles add up to more than a couple of grams.
     
    jim beam, Aug 19, 2007
    #5
  6. jim beam

    Tegger Guest




    Try it before you deny it. This phenomenon has manifested itelf before my
    eyes repeatedly over the course of 16 years.
     
    Tegger, Aug 19, 2007
    #6
  7. jim beam

    jim beam Guest

    but i have!

    you're describing a filter with a functioning anti-drainback valve.
    only a clogged filter can prevent "refill", or what i'm describing, an
    empty filter because the valve is malfunctioning.
     
    jim beam, Aug 19, 2007
    #7
  8. jim beam

    Graham W Guest

    So do I, I only included it for completeness. But it may be an interesting
    exercise. I thought that the anti-drainback device was to protect the
    motor during start-up, so have filters got a lot smaller over the years?
    Or have the pumps got a higher flow rate?
     
    Graham W, Aug 19, 2007
    #8
  9. jim beam

    jim beam Guest

    filters have gotten smaller, but that's nothing to do with drainback.
    the valve is supposed to be to stop crud draining back into the oil pan
    once it's in the filter,

    nope. not necessary either.
     
    jim beam, Aug 19, 2007
    #9
  10. jim beam

    Graham W Guest

    Understood. Thanks Jim.
     
    Graham W, Aug 19, 2007
    #10
  11. jim beam

    Tegger Guest



    Filters I've used over the course of many years that do NOT allow
    refilling of the center pipe after initial drain:
    - OEM Honda (made in Canada by FRAM)
    - OEM Toyota (made in USA by somebody else [Filtech?]).

    Filters that will repeatedly refill the center pipe after initial drain:
    - Most aftermarket, including FRAM filters that use the /exact/ same
    anti-drainback flap as OEM Honda.

    ------------

    A filter medium will allow fluid flow in BOTH directions. It is critical
    to realize that.

    Consider this, therefore: When you place a full filter open end up,
    there is an empty center pipe. The natural tendency for the oil in the
    area surrounding the center pipe is to try to equalize itself by leaking
    through the medium until the level is the same on either side of the
    medium. Air would seep through the upper medium until the levels were
    equal.

    The above paragraph will only be true if the medium is so constructed as
    to allow oil flow while not under pressure.

    To test your hypothesis, next time I do an oil change, I will
    specifically push the anti-drainback flap back with a tool so as to
    break any vacuum that may be present, and see if oil begins seeping into
    the center pipe.
     
    Tegger, Aug 20, 2007
    #11
  12. jim beam

    jim beam Guest

    but that's my point. the only way the center pipe won't refill is if
    the filer medium is blocked to not just oil, but air as well, /or/ if
    the one-way valve is not working and the filter is empty because it's
    already drained. you've confirmed part of my original question, that
    oem filters always seem to drain.
     
    jim beam, Aug 20, 2007
    #12
  13. jim beam

    Tegger Guest



    You have raised a good point here: I have never checked to see if the OEM
    filter was actually full. Since the used OEM filters always felt as heavy
    as the used aftermarket ones, I always assumed they were still full.

    However...at times I've been in a hurry and have pulled the filter soon
    enough that the center pipe was still full. This makes a hell of a mess and
    makes me go through many paper towels mopping up the spills on the back of
    the engine. I dump out what little there is left (if any) in the center
    pipe and sit the filter down open-end up. And nothing seeps into the center
    pipe. Not with OEM, anyway.

    I'm a month away from the next change on either car, so stay tuned...
     
    Tegger, Aug 20, 2007
    #13
  14. jim beam

    johngdole Guest

    I cut open a couple of old filters after letting them stand to drain
    for a while. The residual oil in there is just the amount that sat in
    the relief valve area or could drain through the center tube.

    The Purolator PureOne felt heavy, but if they stand upright for a
    while I see oil seep into the center tube. So there is no restriction
    in the media of my old filters to hold them from the center tube.

    It's been a while with Honda OEM (Fram version or Bosch Filtech
    version) when the owner gave the large filters. I only source
    Purolator PureOne PL14459 or Bosch Filtech 3312. These are the "old"
    large sized ones.

    If smaller filters could work, while even the larger filters in the
    first place?
     
    johngdole, Aug 21, 2007
    #14
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