Old car economics

I've got a 91 Honda Accord with 128K miles on it. I bought it new and have
always maintained it well. But its got some problems that are going to have to
be fixed. It needs new tires, the exhaust is rusted from the cat back, the
clutch master cylinder is leaking, there is something wrong with the power brake
booster, it doesn't handle like it used to, and the it has the rear fender rust
common to Honda's of this vintage.

My ballpark estimate of the cost to fix all of this is oh I don't know lets say
$2,000. If I buy a new Accord it is going to cost around $20 K or $460/month
for 48 months. If I fix the one I've got, that same $460/month will pay off the
tab in a little over 4 months. Then I'll have hopefully many months without a
"car payment." Not to mention dirt cheap insurance, taxes, and registration. So
when does it make sense to pull the plug on a car?

 

when all your other bills are paid off
when the engine or tranny goes
when youre just plain tired of it
when you can afford a decent down payment
when the monthly payments arent going to affect you much.

 

A national CAA survey (equivalent to the AAA) among 20000 respondants
performed in 2003 revealed the average cost of maintenance for passenger
vehicules is :

age of car
1 $200
2 $350
3 $500
4 $800
5 to12: $1100 per year

Survey respondants claimed driving an average of 19k km per year, or app
12k milles. (I am sure most respondants dont keep a detailed history of
repair costs. So let's add a couple of hundred dollars to the age 5 -12
figure.)

In the last 12 months, I spent $1400 on my 1998 Max. I drove 22k km. It now
has 123k km on the odometer.

In my estimation, the economical break point for owning a vehicule is when
it reaches 7-8 years old. At that point, the average yearly total cost of
depreciation, repairs and capital cost is at minimum. Beyond 8 years, the
average yearly cost does not get any significantly lower. As a matter of
fact, you increase the risk of being stranded, car downtime, time lost while
at shops, and loss of income if you depend on the car for such. The most
economical strategy is to buy a used car between 2 and 5 years old and keep
untill it reaches 7 or 8 years of age. A made myself a rule of thumb to
seriously consider getting rid of the car if the last 12 months actual costs
or next 12 months forecast exceeds $1500. But often emotions get in the way.
Or life has other plans.

 

Some guy wrote a book on this once (don't remember name of author or
book). Basically, rule of thumb is buy a 3 tear old car and keep it for
7 more or buy a 7 year old car and keep it 3. His studies are old now
so these numbers may be off now (cars last longer)...

 

My rule of thumb is to never own any vehicle that is depreciating.

Most of the time I drive one of my vintage vehicles, (the newest being a
1964 model) daily.

But with the price of gas suddenly becoming a factor, I ran into a deal
where I bought two early 1980's Civics for $200. One had a bad engine
and the other had been wrecked but the engine was fine.

Seems that within the next month or so, I should be driving an '83 Civic
FE (with a gaggle of spare parts btw) that was rated something like 40
mpg city and 53 mpg highway. No steenkin' computer, airbags, and other
silly devices to drive you nutz as well.

Yep, no hybrid for this guy!

 

I will keep my 90 Integra as long as it stays reliable.
This car has been extremely reliable since I bought it new in 90. For
now, I don't worry about being standed anywhere, I go anywhere and as
far as I want with this car and I'm not worried.
When it starts falling apart, when I'll worry of been stranded
somewhere, when it breaks faster than I can fix it, or when it costs
more to maintain than payments on a newer one, I'll get rid of it.
It's all paid up, and it cost me much less than $1000 to maintain (I do
do keep record of it). Insurance cost is much less too.
Last "expensive" job on it was a paint job 3 years ago. This car looks
like new and rides like new, I could never get anything better for the
money I spend on yearly maintenance plus the money I'd get by selling it.


Carl
90 Integra RS

 

I appreciate the numbers, assuming that this is purely a cost decision they
still don't make sense to me. Even assuming the depreciation model where you
buy a 2 - 5 year old car the total cost still seem to favor fixing the old car
pretty much forever. From the NADA page I got the following approximate numbers
for a 4 door Honda Accord LX:

Year Value Monthly payment Yearly Payment
2002 15K 350 $4,200
1999 10K 230 $2,760

A 5 year old car is going to cost $2,760 every year for 4 years just to pay the
loan. The numbers below predict $1,100 per year in maintenance, so it would
seem to be $1,600 more cost effective to keep the old one. (assuming of course
that the "newer" car doesn't need its own maintenance. In which case the paid
for car is an even better deal.) Even if you have to replace an engine or
transmission $2,700 will pretty much cover those costs.

The reason for my question is I find myself in a situation I've never been in
before. In the past I've traded cars because of changing family situations. So
I've never had a car this old, but my Accord is a perfectly fine car. It does
what I need it to do, and buying a new one will not give me any great pleasure.
(Unless of course I can prove that it will save me money in the long run.) The
prevailing "wisdom" I've heard is not to spend more money on a car than it is
worth. But if spending that money gives you many more years of service, why not
fix it?

Dean

 

If this was to be believed, then owning a car from the 5th year to the 10th
would cost $5500. In my limited experience, about 5 cars that fall into
that range, this is completely wrong. I never spent that much money on
a car. Even if I didnt' do all the work on my car and paid someone else
to do it, the numbers would be lower.

I think it is best to get a 7-8 year old car that has been well maintained.
You get it at a really low price to start with and then don't have to spend
that much money keeping it running, this assumes the prior owner maintained
the car properly. This strategy has worked well for me, so far.

 

The most

Almost my thought. I'd say the best period minimal depreciation/acceptable
reliability & repair costs is between 5 and 8 years. At 8 years, it still
has a good value (if it is an Honda) and it is interesting to get good cash
from it. After 8 years, the 6-7000$ car will become a 2-4000$ quickly.

 

Yah that was a guess. Yesterday I called around and got estimates on the work
and with labor it is more in the $1,000 range.

done at 90K miles

done at 120K miles

Resoldered this weekend. (thanks to everyone that posted pages on how to do
that)

I'm not aware of any distributor issues. There was something wrong with the
distributor years ago and the dealer fixed it free, including covering the tow
bill.

Not yet. According to the mechanic those can be done at 150K miles

Done


The single most expensive quote was to repair the rust. It isn't too bad yet
but it is still $650 to fix.

The one thing I failed to consider is the safety of the 91 Accord. There are no
air bags, ABS, and I doubt that its crash performace will be equal to the newer
Honda's. All the money in the world can't fix those issues. (well, I guess it
could by buying a new car <lol>)

So with that critical oversight, failing to consider the saftey of the older
car, I'm leaning toward getting something a little newer with the appropriate
saftey equipment.

Thanks
Dean

 

The things you mentioned don't sound like $2,000. Question is what
have you put into it recently. Has the clutch been changed ($600),
has the timing belt/water pump/counterbalance belt been done ($500),
Have your replaced the main relay and/or distributor parts ($150-200
if you do it yourself). Struts? Drive axles?

I just put about $1000 in my '90 based on the fact that I had done all
of these things within the last year or two. I did the body work and
painted it myself so that only cost about $150 for materials to do
that. Figure I have a car that is good to go for another 2-3 years
with only minor maintenance. And it looks good too.

I also have a 97 and strongly prefer the 90 so there is a touch of
emotional attachment.

You have to assess what needs to be done now and what is probable in
the near future to make the proper decision

 

Until someone stole my car this morning, I had put less than $1000 in
maintenance (other than oil changes) into my 1994 Civic DX 5-speed
since I bought it five years and 90,000 miles ago, so I would disagree
with your statement. In fact, it still gas the original clutch after
177,000 miles. The largest single payout was the clutch slave cylinder
at $170 parts/labor. Of course, this is a Honda we're talking about,
and a friend of mine had an 87 or 88 Civic with 325,000 miles on it
that he still drove to work every day. On the other hand, another
friend had a piston ring break at 154,000 miles and bought a Japanese
import engine to replace it. Take all this stuff for what it's worth,
but my personal gut feeling would be to buy another 5-6 year old Honda
when my costs go above that $1500 mark over 12 months.

Nate

 

The $1500 I was referring to includes normal wear items, such as tires,
brakes, exhaust, filters and tune ups, lub, etc.
Maybe this is why many here think this number is high for them?



"> Until someone stole my car this morning, I had put less than $1000 in

 

I had the speed sensor go out on my '90 Prelude also at 140K. That
along with a cooling fan, master cylinder, power antenna, A/C failure,
and ABS showing signs of needing a rebuild; now a timing
belt/tensioner issue, and tonight the blower fan (which I had out a
few months back to replace the resistor pack and brushes) is vibrating
at speed #4.

Starting to think about getting it in good enough shape to sell and be
done with it. I would have hoped for more than 144K before facing the
daily failures, though!

 

No real issue with the distributor, it is just that the igniter tends
to fail at that milege and age. Also the speed sensor. I had to
replace both at about 140K.

Your plan is sound though, with what you have already done, you should
be able to get a good price for the car.

 

You know the old saying "it's not the years it's the miles". I
believe it is just the opposite with these cars.

I kept a 1976 Datsun (Nissan) truck for 25 years. When I got rid of
it the truck only had 130K on it. The mechanical components of the
engine and drive train were sound, however everything electronic,
electrical or made out of plastic, foam, or fiberboard was literally
disintegrating from age. Also spot welds were starting to give up. My
perfect drive train truck was starting to cost me a fortune in $50-100
switches, knobs, relays, dohickies and minor repairs. Had to get rid
of it.

 

I own a 96 Integra coupe w/ 78k miles. It runs fine, has some minor
easily fixable issues and being a mechanic, I could fix it and drive
it forever. However, I'm going to get rid of it because it no longer
meets my needs. I need something that will occassionally hold a good
sized toolbox, 6' couch, large TV, or bookcase, and maybe fit 4
adults.. Currently I can fit myself and a passenger, but I would dare
stick anyone over 5 feet tall in the back and anything really bulky
just won't fit.

Whoever gets it will be getting a great deal.. However, it no longer
meets my needs -- so it has to go. 9 yrs, almost no repairs, I think
I did ok.

You're in a slightly different place, the car needs work. After you
do the work, you'll still have a nearly 14 yr old car that we hope
will serve you well, but at 14 yrs old -- anything can happen. Can
you deal with the inconvenience of more things breaking?

I know some poeple will say put $2k into it and drive it until it
collapses, but I'd encourage you to replace it with a 3 yr old Accord
and drive the 3 yr old one for 10 years.

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