Prestone LowTox + cooling system flush

|However - in all its infinite wisdom, Honda only sells the Type II
|coolant 50/50 premixed with water. This isn't very helpful for
|someone who wants to flush out a system (i.e. moi), or lives in
|sub-freezing climates.

I don't understand this.
The lowest freeze point is reached at 50/50 mix.
Rex in Fort Worth

 

No, the lowest freezing point is at somewhat stronger concentrations;
see for example:

http://www.ashchem.com/adc/chemicals/faq_answer.asp?typeID=3&is_header=N

 

The service life of Honda Type 2 is double the old Type 1 so there's really
no increase in cost at all. I believe that they are doing the premix
because many people do not realize the potential damage which can occur
with mixing with just tap-water.

Dexcool is bad news - I'd get it the hell out of my car, based on the class
action suit and others' experiences: http://www.imcool.com/index.html

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

Then again it might be a bad fit and the results are kinda painful. Here's
a (quite old) article on it:
http://www.imcool.com/articles/antifreeze-coolant/G05-Glysantin.htm It
says that G-05 is "moderately silicated." I wouldn't take the risk. I'll
stick with the Honda stuff.

Did you know there's a class action suit on Dexcool?... read about it in
the links at http://www.imcool.com/index.html It's not just radiator and
heater cores which are sprouting leaks - head and other gaskets too.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

Dex-Cool is showing *lots* of problems with leaks - see the class action
suit articles at http://www.imcool.com/index.html

That stuff is for racing cars. Most racing circuits prohibit the use of
antifreeze due to clean-up and pollution issues - as a result, the racers
must use plain water, where the "wetter" helps to get air out of the system
and allows the water to make initimate contact with the metal surfaces...
by reducing the very high surface tension of water.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

Honda Type II has a longer service life but I don't think is really
classified as "extended life", is it? I've done 30K miles on my '92
Integra with Honda Type II and no sign of problems. I'm baffled by the
resistance to the stuff. Are people really willing to gamble a wrecked
engine for the sake of saving $10. or so every 60K miles

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

Many "extended life" or "longer life" coolants use a variation of the
"organic acid" corrosion inhibitors. I know Dex-Cool coolants were
the first. Toyota's new "long life" (60K miles) coolant is; I just
picked up a bottle and one of the ingredients is "organic acid salts".
I suspect Honda Type 2 coolant is just another coolant using organic
acid technology. Read the following (sounds like it's from a Honda
marketing flyer):

<http://www.surreyhonda.com/faq_oil.htm>

"Honda's formulation for coolant does not use silicates or borates
to enhance the corrosion protection for aluminum components. Instead,
Genuine Honda antifreeze/coolant uses a proprietary organic corrosion
inhibitor."

 

From what I can tell the dex cool appears to be a problem because people
just assume everything is fine and they don't bother checking their coolant
levels when they should and they are probably believing the 5 year 150k mile
BS. Personally I plan to change my DexCool in my Honda every year or two
and I really don't anticipate any problems. I will post on this further if
it becomes a problem.

I didn't get the DexCool because of the supposed long life but for the
silicate free properties.

CaptainKrunch

me??

 

If it is just one ounce, why not just use water?

 

My guess is that a good deal of owners of these GM cars aren't as
diligent at checking under the hood compared to the average import
car owner.

There's some pretty good indications that these "extended life", "long
life", etc coolants (perhaps even Honda Type 2) are all just variations
of similar organic acid technology (OAT). The link you gave seemed to
criticize the OAT concept rather than individual implementations.

However - it seems to me that Honda has sensibly used this new coolant
technology, and applied more conservative change intervals than other
carmakers. GM seems to have been the first, and perhaps jumped out of
the gate claiming way too much. Sort of reminds me of when Mobil 1
came out with the suggestion to drain it once a year with filter
changes.

 

I suppose the exact formula varies from brand to brand but the URL I
provided decribes it as "moderately silicated".

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

"Extended life" coolants have been around for >40years. Dex-Cool is just a
newer twist on the story and according to the URL I've given it is
"moderately silicated". I gave up experimenting on coolant the first time
I saw the results of just using Prestone off the shelf. If you want to try
to find an equivalent which saves you $3./year, please *do* report back on
results.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

Havoline Dex-Cool is clearly labelled as silicate-free. A previous
version of Prestone Extended Life was labelled as silicate-free,
although I don't recall seeing that description on the current
Dex-Cool licensed version.

I still hear that silicates aren't supposed to be in any Dex-Cool
system if it can be helped.

 

I'm referring to the current offerings of extended-life coolants
recommended by car manufacturers. If I recall, very few carmakers
recommended/mandated their use, and that that didn't surely didn't
think much of the "extended life" claims. Now there are a whole
slew of organic acid coolants mandated by carmakers, and the evidence
seems to be that Honda Type 2 is just another one. The URL you
provided seemed to primarily criticize the reliability of the
technology itself, rather than any particular implementation.

Again - The Havoline/Chevron labelled Dex-Cool coolants are
silicate-free. Perhaps Prestone Extended-Life isn't (they
don't say either way).

<http://www.havoline.com/products/la/antifreeze_01_tech.html>

"The primary limiting factor in the shelf life of a coolant is
silicate instability. Since silicate will eventually polymerize
to silicate gel, all traditional coolants have a shelf life of
about 18 months. Havoline Extended Life Anti-Freeze/Coolant
DEX-COOL is silicate-free and therefore can be stored for at
least 8 years without a problem, provided the integrity of the
container is maintained."

So - right now I'm trying to flush the my cooling system of
the Prestone LowTox with two changes of water. Sure - I could
try to use Honda Type 2, but then I'd either end up with less
than a 50/50 mixture, or I'd have to use four gallons of
Type 2 (about $50) to get close to a 50/50 mixture. I've got
the Havoline Dex-Cool already, and I should be able to bring
up the concentration with undiluted coolant.

 

OK - I looked at the Prestone website. I suspect that the GM
6277M standard for Dex-Cool coolant specifically prohibits the
use of silicates.

<http://www.prestone.com/tips/page7.htm>

"Q: Does Prestone® Antifreeze/Coolant contain phosphates?

A: For those consumers who would feel more comfortable using a
phosphate-free antifreeze, our Prestone® Extended Life 5/150
Antifreeze/Coolant is phosphate, silicate, and borate free."

 

Sorry - I got mixed up between the Glysantin G 05 and Dex-Cool - it's the
former which is "moderately silicated".

OK but would you normally buy a product which is the subject of so much
controvery and has an active class-action suit against its mfr and
suppliers?

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

Not sure what you looked at at the URL I gave but the impression I got from
what I saw was that it is Dex-Cool which is the culprit. We know, of
course, that the cooling system is a neglected part of the system by many
people - once per week is most mrfs' recommendation for checking *all*
fluid levels/condition and yet many simply refuse to lift the hood. All
the same the leak reports are on the high side here and even one in this
very thread.

While Honda's Type II may be just another one, it does not mean that the
OAT is identical and I doubt that I'll take advantage of its "extended
life" anyway. The fact is that even Honda Type I coolant was necessary to
avoid water pump problems. If assumptions are to be made here, IMO it
would be that Honda has a coolant which is *still* compatible with its pump
seals/bearing *and* has this "extended life" attribute.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

First of all - when I got my Integra, I did the first coolant drain at
30K miles (manual said 45K), and every 15K after that until a rad hose
burst. I used regular Honda coolant (not premixed). When my rad hose
burst and I started using Havoline Dex-Cool, I was going to do the
regular 15K changes that I'd done previously, although I did let it
slip to about 18K.

Everything I've ever heard about this water pump "compatibility" is
that silicates are the culprit - either by wearing away at the
seals or gelling and clogging them up. As long as I (or the next
owner of my car) is still replacing coolant every 15K miles/once a
year, exactly what benefit will I get from using Honda Type 2 over
(silicate-free) Dex-Cool? I doubt they'll pay if it fails on a
car with 130K miles.

I was flushing my system to remove as much Prestone as I could. How
would I use Honda Type 2 coolant to bring up the concentration even
close to 50/50?

 

Haven't heard of that name before.

As far as I can tell, the problem is with a combination of improperly
monitored cooling systems along with the extended life claims. Most
of the problems mentioned in that article seemed to arise from
large amounts of air in cooling systems. It would seem that the
problem could have been avoided if owners just checked their reserve
tanks every once in a while. I'd venture that owners taking care of
Hondas in the same fashion would likely end up with similar problems.

I changed my coolant every 15K miles. The Dex-Cool product was cheap
and seemed to meet the recommendations for a silicate-free coolant.

 

This doesnt prove anything except that you can get antifreeze formulations
that are free of phosphate and silicate.

How WELL they work, with respect to engine corrosion, seems to be as
nebulous as the
synthetic versus dino oil controversy.

I have done these tests under laboratory conditions, and I can tell you that
everything is a compromise.