Price fixing among tire manufacturers

At some point during my growing up, word on the street was that mag
wheels were made illegal for street use due to the fire hazard discussed
in the Wikipedia article. So what's the scoop - is it just illegal to
manufacture them and sell them to consumers, or could a person make his
own and put them on his car, or would that be illegal too?

Strange that *any* race track or association would allow them. Perhaps
they are just considered part of the hazard of racing?

Common terms die hard. Just like people call valve lash adjusters valve
lifters even though the latter is not technically accurate for most of
today's engines. And then there's the fluctuation of the terms
generator and alternator both on the street and in the auto industry
(which now has officially reverted back to calling those things that
produce electricity on our cars generators even though they are what we
learned to call alternators when the switch from what used to be called
generators was made years ago). (and there's nothing technically wrong
with calling what we have been calling alternators generators - but your
right - an aluminum wheel is not a mag wheel)

Then there's the commonly used term 'front wheel spindle', even though
technically there's no such thing on a typical front wheel drive vehicle
(steering knuckle, yes - spindle? - no).

Yadda yadda yadda...

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

Bill Putney wrote:

What makes these people cowards?

Percentages of what? Return on investment? Income?

I forget the exact numbers, but I compared the profit margin of some oil
companies to the profit margins of other companies, including utilities,
which I think is a fair comparison. The profit margins of the oil
companies were right in line. However, in the last year or so, oil
companies did make a lot of money in the refining of gasoline, which, to
me, indicates the price of gasoline was higher compared to price of
crude oil than it had been in the past.

The other question I have is what if an oil company is well run or made
the right investments? Should it be rewarded for that with higher profits?

I would add a lot of other companies are making more money now, like the
companies that make oil drilling equipment. Oh, and gee, I own shares of
mutual funds that own these sorts of equipment.

Jeff

 

The saline concentration of human urine varies greatly, depending on
diet, activity, volume of urine and other factors.

True. It's also the same reason why people lost at sea don't survive if
they drink urine and/or sea water.

However, I haven't seen anyone suggest drinking all the urine one makes
(with the exception of mothers of rats and other rodents - the mothers
drink the urine of their pups when they are small because the pups can't
concentrate urine, it's a form of water concentration).

That was rather dishonest of you to cut off my sentence in the middle. I
never suggested that excess sodium is further metabolized.

In fact, I said: "If you drink your urine, the stuff in the urine will
further metabolized, excreted again by the kidneys or pooped. Your
kidneys won't be harmed."

The people who do drink their own urine usually only drink the urine
first thing in the morning.

Obviously, if you drink all your urine, you will never get rid of the
waste products.

Jeff

 

Two answers to that:
(1) Ask Mr. Harding what "profits" he was talking about - ask him to
provide percentage profits in the context he was talking in. (you
snipped his original comment).
(2) Ask all the people that keep talking about "record profits" to
define what they mean by that (they won't because they are just
repeating whatever they are told on the blogs about that and have no
concept of running a business or whay you talk in terms of percentnage
and not dollars to have any relative meaning).

Certainly these companies have - let's see - "profit and loss
statements". What does an accountant call "profit"? What does the IRS
call "profit". But - again - ask these people who are complaining about
these "record profits" to define what they mean by that (and again, my
guess is they won't be able to tell you because they don't know -
they're just repeating a mantra), and once that is in place, determine
that as a percent like an accountant would. Once that is done, *then*
we can talk about these "record profits" instead of them being thrown
out there with no meaning and no definition just as an emotional and
political argument.

Damn - you asked me "Percentages of what?", and now you start talking
about "profit margin" that you have actually looked up. I'm no
accountant, but are not "profit margin" figures the very numbers from
which "percentage profits" are determined? Use those "profit margins"
you just mentioned in terms of percentages.

The profit margins of the oil

"...a lot...indicates...higher...compared to...". Get the mush out of
your mouth and put it in terms of percentage profit margin, and lets
look at in terms of a year, 5 years, 20 years... Quantify it.

Let the people making the accusations put the number - percentage
numbers - not dollars - out there for discussion (put dollars out there
*too* if they want, but not *just* raw dollars). Otherwise you've just
got people being manipulated by emotion, and numbers being tossed around
for convenience only when it suits their purpose (like the global
warming hoax).

Should the local hardware store? Would we possibly agree that the
answer to both is 'yes'?

And your point about that is...? My reply to that is good for you.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

I don't know about that anymore. The yards around here USED to do that
years ago. But it's been a while since I've been in a wrecking yard that
had an extensive tire rack.

What they still seem to do is if they come across a nice set of 4 intact
aluminum wheels, most espically a popular aftermarket pattern,
they will setup for display the -entire- set of 4 -with- tires still on
them,
regardless of the condition of the tire. I also see from time to time
sets of the largest SUV tires on display in the yards, the most popular
sizes, that is. But nothing smaller than a 16 inch rim.

The last time I bought a tire in a yard was I bought a set of 2 for an
old trailer I own that someone welded up out of some 1930's Ford
truck axle. The tires on it are something like dump truck tires, they
have an outrageously high load rating, and the tire and hub use inner
tubes and have a really weird size rating. I found the ones I wanted
- easily 20 years old - both still
on rims and the yard made me take them rims and all and leave a
deposit, so I would bring back the rims. I took those and the trailer
down to an old industrial truck tire sale place (since closed) where
they dismounted them (by hand, using a crowbar) and mounted them
(by hand) on the trailer rims.

Your right, I was using the term "mag wheels" as a generic term. The
'93-'95
T&C's came with factory aluminum alloy wheels with a snowflake pattern, for
the record.

I don't see a problem with it, if you find a tire in a yard that has most of
it's
tread left, still mounted on a wheel, and still holding air. Of course it's
going
to be almost impossible to find a match to your existing tires so that is
where
the safety factor comes in.

But if you really want a set of good used tires, the hot place to look
nowadays
is craigslist. There's tons of young kids on there who have replaced sets
of
4 perfectly good blackwall tires with "premium" tires with raised white
lettering,
etc. and are trying to make some money off of the set.

Ted

 

Well - once again, someone who wants to kick dust up about the oil
company profits disappear when you ask them to talk *PERCENTAGES* (or
margin) instead of raw dollars. I'm no fan of the oil companies either,
but regardless of the subject or what "side" you're on, at least be honest.

Just so everyone's awareness/sensitivity is raised: Whenever a
politician starts talking about oil company profits, *NOTICE* that they
will *only* talk raw dollars, and *NEVER* mention percent profit
(because then they can't spin people up on emotion rather than fact). I
heard John Edwards do it just within the last two days.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

Oh for Christ sake, Bill, your distinction is MEANINGLESS!

*PERCENTAGES*? If you want to talk percentages, feel free to produce them,
we will look at your percentages. They won't change the conversation. Big
oils profits are obscene, period. Twisting the data around won't change
that.

 

You missed the point, which was that people are using sleight of hand
(by using raw dollars) to use the term "record profits". *ANY* viable
industry (or individuals in their personal income) at most times in
history are making "record profits" in raw dollars, but not in
percentages. That is true of the oil industry, is it not? (hint: answer
'yes') (another hint: Look up the word "inflation")

I don't need to produce the percentages for this discussion. The point
is that the argument you are using can be used as a barometer by which
to gage a person's intelligence and honesty.

Anyone who doesn't see that point, especially after it has been pointed
out to them multiple times) is stupid or dishonest or both (sometimes
it's hard to tell the difference).

Shows how much you understand. For every dollar made there's risk.
Part of profit is to cover or insure against the risk of disaster (of
any kind), as well as return on investment. Why would you risk your
money (and a lot of it) to constantly hover above and below break even
like apparently you expect the oil companies to do but which I submit
you would not do in your personal life if you ran a business?

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

Using percentages is NOT twisting data. It is how every company views its
profit on sales, it is how every consumer views the interest banks give you
on savings.

Do you think an increase of 500% is obscene? If my company had sales of $1
million last year and made $1 profit, you'd say it was not worth being in
business. Yet, if I said my profits increased 500% this year, you'd be
saying they are obscene, yet I only made a mere $5. Oil companies, like
every other business, must make a healthy profit in order to remain in
business, pay dividends to shareholders, and increase in value in our
investment portfolios and 401k's. Let's get back to the real issue, profit
as a percentage of sales. What is it?

 

The oil industry has operating margins of about 10.56% average
(http://finance.yahoo.com/q/co?s=XOM - click on Competitors on the left
hand side). The electric utility industry has operating margins of about
15% (http://finance.yahoo.com/q/co?s=PPL click on competitors).
Microsoft has operating margins of about 37%.

Speaking of percentages, about $2.2 B of ExxonMobil's profit came from
the US, and about $7.2 B came outside the US, so more than 70% of
ExxonMobil's profit comes from outside the US.

Based on this, I would say that the percentages are right in line. The
only reason why ExxonMobil's profit is much is that ExxonMobil is a huge
company, with operations all over the world. They pump out of the ground
over 2,600,000 barrels of oil a day. Do you really think that they
should be doing this for free? They have to explore for oil, drill for
oil, pump the oil out, transport the oil, refine it into gasoline and
other products, and then sell it. Exploration and drilling are very
complex and expensive operations, often in very difficult places, miles
out from shore or in very cold places.

What do you expect? Them to do this for free?

Before you call profits obscene, tell why the profits are obscene. The
number are very big. But so are the costs and the numbers in terms of
product (crude oil, gasoline, heating oil, natural gas) delivered.

ExxonMobil and the other oil companies are in business to make money.
They invest billions of dollars in exploration and drilling. They
deliver 100,000,000 gallons of crude oil every day. Gee, I don't expect
them to do this for free.

Jeff

 

How do you figure? If they increased 500%, they increase $5. $1 + $5 = $6.

Percentages can be confusing, too.

It less than the profit made by regulated industries, like utilities.

And most of many oil companies' profits come from outside the US.

Jeff

 

Sigh, and of course the accountants at ExxonMobil would never arrange
things (to the extent that is legal, or at least can be claimed to be
legal in some twisted way) so that the money was made in countries
with favorable tax laws. ExxonMobil produces and buys crude oil
overseas. They can adjust the price of the crude so that it appears
the profit were made in the country of production or almost any other,
effectively transferring the profit on the complete supply chain away
from the US. Likewise, they own or lease tankers that are technically
owned by subsidiaries operating in countries with more favorable tax
laws. Again, they can adjust the cost of transporting oil to move some
of the profits to these countries. I am not saying any of this is
illegal, or even bad business practices, but it does happen. So saying
that X% of ExxonMobil's profit came from outside the US is almost
completely meaningless.

Ed

 

Well, gee, it is not in the US if the product is outside the US.

Well considering that it gets most of its oil outside the US, and a lot
of the sales are outside the US (they own or supply gas stations in many
countries besides the US) from oil that has never been in the US.

So, it is not nearly as meaningless as you suggest.

Jeff

 

I'm sure with your attitudes, the blatant thievery going on in Russia's
newly privatized energies industries is perfectly acceptable to you too...
Sheesh...

Where do the many billions of dollars in US tax payer provided OIL industry
subsidies fit into your accounting scheme?
No other industry gets over a trillion a year in subsidies while pulling in
a hundred billion in profits.

Big oil companies are swimming in a sea of record-breaking profits while
American consumers and taxpayers pay the price. In 2005, the world's biggest
oil companies reported a combined $111 billion in profits. In the first
three quarters of 2006 they reported more than $94 billion.

Here are some *PERCENTAGES* for you!

ExxonMobil 2005 Profits $36.1 billion % increase from 2004 43 %
Royal Dutch Shell 2005 Profits $25.3 billion % increase from 2004 37 %
BP 2005 Profits $22.3 billion % increase from 2004 30 %
ConocoPhillips 2005 Profits $13.5 billion % increase from 2004 66 %
Chevron Texaco 2005 Profits $14.1 billion % increase from 2004 6 %


SPIN that Bill. Dollar or percentages, the oil industries profits are
indeed OBSCENE.

 

That's quite a jump of logic. What do you base that on? Are we talking
Russian mafia (also called "thieves in the law" when translated into
English)? Why do you equate stealing with business profit?

What "scheme" are you talking about!?

When profit figures are stated, do they not take into account whatever
these subsidies are? I mean, if they are making 9 to 11% profit (oh
those evil bastards!!!!!), you're saying that the profit figures are
what they have left over, and then they also - in addition - stick the
amounts of the subsidies into their pockets on top of the debits and
credits that go into the profit/loss calculations? I doubt if that is
the case.

So are other companies on average - compared to what they used to make
in non-inflation-adjusted dollars, which seems to be what you want to
talk about.

And their percent profit is...?

What was their percent profit in 2005? What was their percent profit in
2004? And what do you want me to do about it?

Same questions for 2005 and 2004.

Same questions...

.. . .

.. . .

No spin necessary. 9 to 11% profit is obscene in your book. Whatever.
Again - what do you want me to do/say?

Is what a Hollywood actor/actress or professional sports personality
makes obscene? Why or why not? Are the million or more dollars that a
Hollywood actor or actress spends on a wedding for a marriage that has a
lifespan of 2 or 3 years obscene? Why or why not?

So what's your political or government solution to "obscene" oil company
profits (I assume that's what you would favor). Whatever your solution,
would it be different than communism?

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

You must work for the API or AEI or some other rightwingnut
organization. I'm not the one who described ExxonMobil's profits as
"record", virtually everyone has:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/earnings/2007-02-01-exxonmobil_x.htm


(note "record" profits for 2004, 2005 & 2006)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16922298/

Well-known Socialist writer Larry Kudlow characterizes their profits as
"record":

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MmQ2MDY4ZmFjZDkwZTUyZTIyNTAwMjIyY2Q5NWM5ZTM=

http://money.cnn.com/2007/02/01/news/companies/exxonmobil/index.htm

You'll probably argue that these are all "liberal" sources and, thus,
BS, so how about ExxonMobil's annual report for 2006? Note the use of
terms like "strongest ever" & "record":

http://exxonmobil.com/corporate/files/corporate/xom_2006_SAR.pdf

etc., etc., etc. If you want to argue otherwise you need to document it.

 

Note to Mr Putney: some of us have other things to do than to spend all
day arguing BS in Usenet.

Maybe that's because profits are reported in raw dollars, not in
percentages?

 

LOL, you rightwingnuts kill me!

 

Gees, Jeff, I doubt ExxonMobil supplies refined products directly to gas
stations.

 

What's with this on topic post, Ted? <vbg>