Problem with my 1990 Civic 4WD wagon

I appreciate all comments about my 1990 Civic 4WD wagon. Two weeks
ago, I bought the car from an old lady that I knew for over 10 years.
She bought a brand new Camry, so she had not been driving the Civic for
3 months. Well, after I test-drove it for 10 minutes, the engine over
heated. I drove it back to her, checked the radiator - I did not see
any coolant. Then I bought a gallon of coolant and filled up the
radiator with almost 1 full gallon. Then the over heat problem was
resolved and I bought the car for $2000 (did not negotiate.)

I have been driving it to work for 2 weeks. Every day when I drive the
car, I smell something very unpleasant and the smell makes me sick. It
smells like coolant, my wife said it smells like exhaust gas. I took
the car to a "moon-lighting" mechanic. After a few minutes diagnosis,
he commented that the car did not worth $2000. The car may need new
brake pads and the CV joints may not be in good shape. These may cost
$400. Other than these, he could not find the source of the unpleasant
smell. Then he started the engine and noticed that there was excessive
white smoke coming out the exhaust pipe/muffler. He said it was
abnormal, the engine has potential problems. From my home to his
garage, it was 25 miles. He said, the exhaust gas should be pretty
clear. Then he stopped further checking and asked me to return the car
to the seller.

The lady refused to take it back, of course. But she admitted that she
had been smelling the odor since she bought the car 2 years ago. She
was willing to return $300 to settle with me. Without any other
choices, I accepted it. Now I am worried that this car will cost me
lots of money to repair.

My questions are (1) what is the smell, where is it coming from? (2)
What caused excessive white smoke in the exhaust? I appreciate any
comments.

HWL

 

Just a guess, but I think the head gasket would be a good bet. You
might have $600 to$700 in getting all the things fixed, but then
depending on rust, you might get three or four years out of it. At a
grand a year, you would be about normal for car costs.
If you want to get out now, let me know where you are. I know someone
who is looking for that car. bob (N.E.Ohio)

 

Do you hear any clicking noises while driving? That would be
/a/ symptom of CV joints going bad.

Brake pads are trivial and I wouldn't slam the seller for
these. Find a good import car shop and have them use
genuine Honda pads. Or buy the pads yourself at
www.slhonda.com 's web site, take them to Pep Boys, ask how
much to install, but with you providing the pads. All told,
shouldn't cost more than $100.

While Pep Boys or whoever does the pads, ask them to look at
the CV boots, which fit over the joints. Ask if they see any
tears. This takes just a minute or so per side to ascertain.
Report back.

I agree with what NE Ohio Bob said. That's not cool, selling
a car possibly in need of a head gasket. OTOH, you did test
drive it, and it overheated right away... Now you know a
little more about serious warning signs, so this wasn't a
complete waste. Every person I know has had one or more bad
car buying experiences, but ones that end up making them
better negotiators in the future.

Try to always have a mechanic look the car over before
purchasing, or at least put off purchases until all your
questions and concerns are answered.

About that coolant you put in: Use only OEM coolant or
Havoline Dexcool. If you don't know exactly what's in it
now, drain and refill.

If it continues to overheat in the slightest, do not drive
it. You'll do much more serious damage. Get the new head
gasket (or whatever is the problem) fixed first.

www.edmunds.com says a 1990 Civic 4wd wagon with 100k miles
and a major mechanical problem goes for $1300 from a used
car dealer. It goes for $2300 in clean, good running
condition. Private party prices are much lower.

You weren't too ripped off, money wise. Maybe
inconvenience-wise is the main burden.

How many miles are on this car? If no more than about 100k,
and assuming you don't drive it when it's overheating, and
assuming you repair the cause of overheating, it can serve
you well for several years.

 

i. 1 & 2 are blown head gasket.
ii. the brakes & drive shafts could be the mechanic just fishing for
work since you seem to be a mechanical newbie. get a second opinion.
iii. the 4wd civic wagon is quite a sought-after vehicle in some
circles. if you don't want it, and rust is not a problem, you won't
have much problem reselling it.

 

Thank you Bob, Elle and Jim for you comments.

I live in Minnesota. Old cars in this state are normally rusted.
There is no exception on my wagon. Its body has rust all around. Its
mileage was 86K when I bought it. Nevertheless, the engine does not
run as smoothly as my another 90' Civic DX does. That one has 200K
mileage on it, and still running great.

Last night, I took the wagon in for oil change and had 40 points
inspection. The mechanic said the brake pads and tires should be good
for another 9 months. CV joints' problem is very minor, should not
worry about it until they get worsen. The mechanic did not look for
the source of the unpleasant smell. He asked me to drive it for
another month and observe if the smell persists.

When I drove, I did not hear clicking sound. Only when I backed out
from my garage to the street and had a 90 degree turn. Then I would
hear clicking sounds under the hood near my steering wheel and in the
back.

I don't understand why a blown head gasket would cause over heat and
white smoke in the exhaust and lower the gas mileage. Could you direct
me to any website where I can get some technical information on that
topic? I did observe that the coolant level in the radiator dropped.
It is now slightly above the coolant fins. I tried to trace where it
leaked but found nothing. Gas mileage is 24 mpg. It was 30 when I
drove to Chicago a day after I bought it. It seems the engine is not
that bad. Should I go ahead to replace the head gasket or wait until it
gets worse?

HWL

 

bunny wrote:

because you're losing compression, losing coolant and overheating the motor.

no! get the gasket replaced.

replace it. driving in this condition can fry the engine and you'll end
up having to replace the whole thing. not only is that VERY expensive,
you could be on the freeway, seize the engine and find yourself very
inconvenienced. replace and be safe.

 

I think this will invite further comment.

But the head gasket is the bigger concern, for now.

Despite what the mechanic said, I would not drive this car.
If I had to, I would be very careful about doing so, and be
cognizant that I was risking more serious damage to it by
doing so. Don't rely on it to get you anywhere. I wouldn't
exactly call the car safe to you, the driver, either, given
the CV joint clicking. But see what others say on the CV
joints.

You understand that this car's engine has four cylinders
into which gasoline and air are introduced, and then ignited
with the spark plugs, right? And then the piston moves,
right? And a crankshaft converts the up-and-down motion to
rotary motion, ultimately turning your car's wheels, right?

The part of the engine that holds the cylinders is called
the "cylinder block." It has passages drilled in it so
anti-freeze can circulate around the cylinders etc. and keep
the cylinder block relatively cool. See the cylinder block
at

http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/prddisplay.
jsp?inputstate=5&catcgry1=Civic&catcgry2=1990&catcgry3=WGN+4
WD+1600&catcgry4=KA4AT&catcgry5=CYLINDER+BLOCK-OIL+PAN

Sitting on top of the four holes (the cylinders) in the
drawing above is a "cylinder head." See it at
http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/prddisplay.
jsp?inputstate=5&catcgry1=Civic&catcgry2=1990&catcgry3=WGN+4
WD+1600&catcgry4=KA4AT&catcgry5=CYLINDER+HEAD

Notice part #6 is the head gasket. If it tears, due to
pressure and age, say, coolant can leak from the cooling
passages in the block into the cylinders themselves. Imagine
what this does to the usual combustion of fuel and air!

First, combustion is going to be poor. The car is probably
blowing a lot of unburnt fuel right out of the exhaust.
Hence the poor fuel mileage you're getting, most likely.
Second, that white smoke is from either the heating of the
coolant during the combusion to a weird kind of steam, or
some odd product of combusting gasoline, air, and some of
the coolant. You most likely will also smell anti-freeze in
the exhaust gases coming out the tailpipe, too.

Anti-freeze may also get into the engine oil, since the
cylinder walls are lubricated by the engine oil, and the
residual oil falls ultimately into the oil pan. Add
anti-freeze to the cylinder, and it's going to do some
mixing with the oil lubricating system, too. Very bad...
Very risky.

Google for {"blown head gasket" symptoms}, and a number of
sites will come up. They tend to say the same thing, meaning
that, while this doesn't happen to all cars, it happens
often enough that it's a topic often treated.

With the white smoke and lowered coolant level, it certainly
sounds like a blown head gasket, which means the leak is
internal to the engine block. You won't be able to see the
leak per se, because it's occuring within the engine's
"guts." You can only see what comes out the cylinders
(through the exhaust pipe, ultimately) and quite possibly
also what gets into the anti-freeze (e.g. oil), or what gets
into the oil.

If you check the dipstick, you might notice anti-freeze in
the oil. Which, as I noted, is also very serious.

I agree that's good intuition, but you're really rolling the
dice at this point. As long as you don't let this engine get
overheated, or the oil and cooling systems don't beome too
contaminated (fat chance?), then at only 86k miles, there's
some serious hope that you'll get some serious years out of
this car. With some work, it might one day soon run as well
as your other Civic. There are a lot of little, fairly
inexpensive items that might drastically improve its
performance quickly, once the head gasket is fixed.

I would take it to an independent import car shop,
preferably Honda, have them double check that it's a head
gasket. They'll call you to confirm it is, then have it
done.

If this car overheats, then the metal of the cylinder can
warp, and the damage will be much more expensive to repair.

Sounds like you're keeping coolant in the car with you and
watching the levels closely. That's good, but again, you're
really rolling the dice. The head gasket leak may not be bad
now, but it will likely worsen.

After the head gasket is done, we can talk about a full,
basic tuneup (new plugs, wires, distributor cap, rotor, air
filter, fuel filter, possibly new PCV valve, all genuine
Honda parts, and then check the timing), then go from there
to see how it's running.

From reports here, new head gaskets are running $600 to
$1000. The tuneup I mention above will run maybe $100 for
parts, $100 for labor. Though if you're handy, you can do
much of the tuneup yourself.

 

Hi Elle and Jim,

Thanks again for the valuable technicial information. Now I understand
more about the relationship between cooling system and the engine. I
will take your advice and fix the head gasket soon.

Yesterday I testdrove a 1994 Accord LX. The car has little rust on the
body, same areas that most Honda's cars had. Its mileage is 135K. The
seller put new battery, new tires last year, replaced quite a few major
components for the last 2 years, and replaced the muffler last week.
He said he used genuine Honda parts. The car runs really great, did
not feel any problem about the brakes and CV joints. It also has
security system and remote engine start control installed. He is asking
for $2500. It seems to be a good deal. Should I take it with full
price?

HWL

 

I think you have some tough decisions to make--ones with
which people from afar can't really help very well without
seeing the cars up close.

Figuring out which of the two cars will give you the most
bang for the overall buck spent is very difficult at this
point. I don't think the 94 Accord is going to be
trouble-free, but it may very well be less trouble. Do you
want to put up with the hassle of having the 90 wagon fixed
up? Or are you ready to give up on the 90 wagon?

How many miles does the 1990 wagon have on it? I can't
remember if you said.

Like I mentioned before, check www.edmunds.com 's used car,
appraiser section. It does suggest the price for the Accord
above is very good. If you continue to consider it, then you
should insist the car be checked out by a mechanic (of your
choosing, not the seller's) first. Then, if it appears to be
in good condition, offer $2000 and see if he'll come down to
at least $2250, say. Or, if you hate haggling, and it's in
good repair, just pay the $2500.

 

My 90 Wagon has 87K mileage on it. I do plan to fix it up and drive it
until it dies, because I don't think I can sell it for $2000. My wife
likes it and fits inside quite well because she is only 5' tall.

My another 90 Civic DX has 200K mileage on it. I am considering
getting that 94 Accord LX to replace it. I was thinking to offer $2100
and see how the seller responds. Before I bought the 90 wagon, I had a
93 Accord EX but my wife ran into a tree in a snowy morning and damaged
it. It would cost $1600 to repair, so I trashed it. I had spent a lot
of money to up keep it. It has been running great for the past 2 years
without any problem. The mileage just reached 220K.

I remember I spent lots of money to keep both cars running when their
mileages reached 160K. I think that 94 Accord LX would have similar
problems at that mileage. So I will see how it goes tomorrow when I
deal with the seller.

HWL

 

Actually both the seller and I take our cars to the same moon-lighting
mechanic for repair. It is the mechanic who refered me to the seller.
The mechanic suggested me to test drive it and if I like it then get
it. He did not ask me to negotiate. But when I told him on the phone
about the 90 wagon, he said the car did not worth $2K because some
repairs would be expected. Well, I made a wrong judgement and did not
get a good price on the wagon.

HWL

 

My daughter's '93 Accord LX has given good service in the 4 1/2 years we've
had it (has it really been that long?) It needed the timing belt, since it
apparently had the original at 163K miles. A pair of drive axles, a
radiator, an igniter and a coil, a window regulator. A pair of front brake
discs because I didn't watch the brakes closely enough. Oh - an oversize
drain plug. I think that's all it took to get it through about 50K miles. It
only stranded her once (the igniter) and threatened to strand her once more
(the coil.) I wish my old Volvo had aged that gracefully.

Personal note to Elle - thanks for the advice about the coil. She made it to
San Diego and back on their belated honeymoon without a hiccup!

Mike

 

hiccup!

Michael Pardee, thank you, but <head in hands> are you now
revealing you sent your daughter on her honeymoon with a
non-OEM ignition coil?? Oh m'goodness...

I'm betting the brother had something to do with this.
Rascals all...

 

Innocent, I swear! The coil I got from alleurasianautoparts had the very
same markings as the one I removed... the only visible difference was the
color of the HT tower (what's with the lime green, anyway?)

Although the brother might have tittered just a little bit at his sister's
anguish. Nah - he might have had to go rescue them.

Sayyy... you don't suppose they found some novel use for the old coil, do
you? 8^O
I don't want to know.

Mike

 

alleurasianautoparts had the very

anyway?)

Hm, interesting site. They say the Bosch coil is OEM, and do
make a distinction between it and an aftermarket coil they
also sell. (I'm looking at the ones for a 91 Honda.)

Dunno about the colors.

Ha ha, honeymoon jokes...

Congratulations to you and your family on what I hope looks
to be a great marriage for your daughter and her new
husband. If they now know the virtues of older Hondas
(thanks to ol' dad and maybe aforementioned brother), then
they've certainly started down a good path.