Proper Radiator Cap Pressure Rating for 1994 Honda Accord EX?

look again elle and try to differentiate between generic statements of
speculation like "it's either a blown gasket or a cracked block" and
definitive statements of fact like "it was a cracked block". not many
of the latter.

 

Thanks to all "point/counterpoint" advice given in this thread. It has been
very helpful in helping me establish the criteria from which to proceed. I
am leaning towards the DIY attempt. I will limit myself to replacing
whatever comes in a head gasket set (4 gaskets and valve seals?) for my 1994
Honda Accord EX; no timing belt, no water pump. This 300K car has enough
miles on it that anything (transmission?) could go bad tomorrow, so I will
replace some gaskets and seals that probably need to be fixed anyway, and
we'll see where the chips fall. Right now the car is parked, and will remain
so until problem is resolved.

1) What is the best way to clean the head and block surfaces without
scratching anything?
2) I believe the bubbles in the coolant is just combustion gas, no oil. I
have not lost any coolant
since the last radiator cap was installed. The breach is currently not
sufficient to cause
liquid loss, just combustion gas bubbles. Would one expect the damage to the
gasket(s) to be
visibly apparent when I remove the head or other gaskets?

Gary

 

for my last one, i used a 4" disposable blade scraper from woolmort.
from the paint section. the wide blade reduces point contact force and
therefore tendency to gouge. i've also seen others claim success with
solvents, but i'm doubtful of the effectiveness if that. if you take
the time, you can shave the old gasket off quite successfully. if you
have success with solvent, please report accordingly! beware scraping
up the soft alloy head and block, obviously. slow and steady wins this
particular race.

for the head, if you're lucky, no. head gaskets get big chunks eaten
out of them if they're bad, as you've probably seen before, but in the
early stages of gas leak, the most you'll see is probably just minor
discoloration of the rings.

if you want to keep this operation cheap, you can probably just get away
with just head gasket and intake manifold gasket - because i believe you
can do this job without taking the cam off. if you don't remove the
cam, there's no need to change the tube seals or the valve seals. the
exhaust gasket is almost always reusable. of course, if you want to do
the job the factory way, you'll strip, inspect, clean and reassemble
everything surgically, but paradoxically, for most of us, the problem
with total strip-down is the introduction of more grit and dirt to the
componentry than a partial job.

grit & dirt are vitally important to avoid. the worst place of all is
the cylinders. do not, do not, do not "clean" the head or cylinder
surfaces with sandpaper or other abrasive. especially not scotchbrite.
abrasive particles float about, get into the cylinder/piston gap and
get stuck where they scrape and ruin your rings. before reassembly,
raise each piston to the top of its stroke, wipe out all the material
that will inevitably fall in, then with a clean cloth, wipe the cylinder
as you push the piston back down again. clean, clean, clean. but wipe,
no solvents. and flush the detritus out of the wet liner with a gentle
hose. removing the block drain plug is a good idea for this.

good luck. and don't hesitate to ask questions.

 

Are you going to buy the parts online, OEM, at, for example,
www.slhonda.com ?

An update on how the job goes is welcome. One thing I will
say about Jim's comments here (not to appease him, heaven
forbid; but just to be honest) is that, if he says a
do-it-yourselfer can change a head gasket, then I believe
him. 'Cause he's fierce about jobs he really thinks an
amateur should not try.

I do stand by my caveat on machining the mating surfaces,
though (usually if any surface, just the head?). There's
just too much chatter on that everywhere, even for Hondas,
for me to believe it's not a gamble.

But maybe it's a gamble you'll win.

I also think you really ought to have the coolant system
pressurized and its chemistry, checked to confirm this
gasket leak, since these tests are not too expensive. Or you
could probably do the pressure check yourself, with some
reading and a few tools.

I defer to the head gasket pros on your questions.

Good luck.

 

1. it's only a gamble if you pay the machinist /before/ you take the
head off. otherwise you inspect and there's no gambling involved. fud
otoh is a whole different ballgame.

2. looking at this logically, it makes absolutely no sense to routinely
machine a head but not a block. apart from the actual liner, the block
mating surfaces on the honda are the same material as the head and work
in the same environment. a "clean" surface one side of the gasket but
not the other? anyone recommending machining without addressing this
logical disconnect has not given any thought about what they're doing.

seriously, the #1 reason heads get machined is to clean them. it's a
pita to do manually, but hey, from a shop's viewpoint, if it's not your
car and you don't want to spend the time and you can pass on the cost...

 

2) I believe the bubbles in the coolant is just combustion gas, no oil.
I

About 6 months ago a neighbor changed the plugs for me. He told me that
one of the plugs was hard to remove, and that he almost had to use a
breaking
bar. Tegger mentioned something in a previous post that heads oftentimes
are milled
to remove corrosion. Maybe this spark plug is in the cylinder where the
breach is
located and the coolant leaking into it has corroded the spark plug threads.

If the head gasket and manifold gasket are likely sources of the problem,
then I will do just them, and not do tube seals and valve seals.


of course, if you want to do

Generally speaking,
the car runs good and the engine sounds good. The less I touch, the better.
In and
out with no footprints.

I read where all the coolant is suppposed to be drained out, is the oil also
supposed to be drained?

"wet liner" = coolant passages in block?
when you say "block drain plug" are you referring to coolant?

Thanks,

Gary

 

I will check it out.

Hope springs eternal! I will definitely put a straight edge on
the head and block and check things out with the feeler gauges.

Maybe I can get a hold of one of those pressure testers. When I
remembered about the "frozen spark plug", things started to make sense.
I will do a minimal investment approach.

Thanks for your input. It was very helpful.

Gary

 

could be coolant, could be crossed thread, could be leaking plug gasket
causing leaking gas to crud up the thread. when you have the head off,
take the opportunity to run a tap through the threads to clean them.
gently. M14x1.25. sears/osh, etc. start from the piston side to
ensure you don't perpetuate crossed thread damage.

no. the plug is at the top of the chamber, not anywhere near the
gasket. the only way it could have corroded the plug threads is if the
block is cracked or if the cylinder's completely filled with coolant
over time and had been left to stand for an extended period. and if
/that/ had happened, it's likely to have had hydraulic lock and thus
have been impossible to start.

drain coolant, but leave the oil in for the moment. on reassembly, let
it flush the system, then do a change after say 50 miles, then do
another change after another 500 or so.

yes. you'll see where it is when you're reading the manual ahead of
doing the job. when ordering parts, get a new drain plug gasket/seal as
these tend to corrode a little.

if you don't have air tools, you'll need a pulley wheel holder and a BIG
breaker bar to free the pulley wheel bolt. my local honda dealer rents
these out for about $20/$30. ymmv. google this group and check out
tegger.com for debate on this. other than that, the only special tool
is the manual. all fasteners are metric.

no need to disconnect the power steering hoses. the pump lifts to one
side and there's enough flex in the rubber hoses to not need to
disconnect anything. iirc, you can leave the a/c in place.

don't forget the "hidden" mounting bolts that secure the intake and
exhaust manifolds. everything comes apart easily once they're removed!
if you're lucky, and you do the lower hangers, you can move the exhaust
manifold forward without disassembling the lower pipe connections -
depends if you have frame damage or not.

 

I forgot to add that of course you are seeing the operation
of your car up close, and experiencing its woes and studying
its symptoms daily. Maybe if I had all the input you have, I
would feel it was a slam dunk it was the head gasket (or
possibly, though admittely remotely, another cooling breach
at the head/block), so a pressure test would not be
necessary.

Your mention of the frozen spark plug is interesting. Maybe
it's nothing, but FWIW my friend with the 99 Civic who blew
a head gasket a few months ago also had one spark plug
frozen. It does make sense that this might happen on
occasion (maybe even often) with a cooling system/engine
breach, either due to warpage of engine parts or the coolant
leaking into the cylinders and getting into the plug's
threads, say.

 

I've got everything apart and I have ordered head, intake, and exhaust
gaskets from www.slhonda.com.
I noticed that there was some deterioration of the intake manifold gasket in
the general area of the oval shaped
orange liner that I'm guessing is some kind of coolant passage. The "orange
liner" was pitted and easily
separated from the rest of the gasket. Maybe that was part of my coolant
problem.

I was unable to pass a .005 feeler gauge under a straight edge placed in
various positions on the head, so
I don't plan on having it shaved.

I cleaned up the head and engine block. I absolutely could not scrape the
black stuff off of certain areas. I had to
resort to a "light hand" with a very fine emory cloth. I can still see the
original "mill marks" on the head, so I don't
think that I damaged anything. It would not come off any other way.

Access to the lower screws made it difficult to remove the intake manifold.
Should I install the intake manifold
on the head before the head is installed? Otherwise, I don't see how I can
torque the intake manifold screws
properly. Any advice appreciated.

Which holes in the engine block do I use to rinse out the coolant?

So far so good. Of course, I trashed the edges of my crankshaft pulley
trying to remove it. I picked up one in a
junkyard for $35.

Thanks for help.

 

Gary Kaucher wrote:

maybe. but unlikely. when you get the new gasket, you'll see that area
is coated in some plasticy stuff and it's probably that stuff sticking
to the metal and pulling apart that make the gasket look the way it does
now.

excellent news.

ok. scrub that side of the head with soap and water and one of those
natural bristle scrub brushes. at least twice. then spray with wd40 to
displace the water. no matter how you try, you'll get bits of silicon
carbide powder in the combustion chamber area and these'll get into the
area around the rings. once there, they tend to stay there scraping
away until the car starts burning oil big time. gotta keep that from
happening. not seeing it doesn't mean it's not there!

if you ever wind up doing this job again, and you didn't this time, use
the thick glass block as backing for the wet & dry. it ensures the high
spots [i.e. where there are still bits of gasket] get all the abrasion
and keeps everything flat. a soft block or fingers means all the
surface gets abrasion, not just the high spots.

put the manifold on first. no reason not to.

is this closed or open deck? if it's open deck, just hose out the water
channel that'll be wide open for you. if you unscrew the drain plug,
the debris and water will flood out there. drain plug is either on the
front or rear of the block. rear i think for you. 17mm or 19mm head.
22mm [iirc] hole.

if it's closed deck, you should be able to figure out which are the
coolant holes. if not, sell that block to a racer and buy a used jdm
motor to put back in! closed deck honda blocks are rare and collect a
premium from anyone looking to do high power motor rebuilds.

does your local dealer rent pulley wheel holders? some of the auto
parts houses do too. it's best to have one so you torque the bolt
correctly on reassembly.

 

Should I also wash out the two open combustion chambers? I had stuffed them
with paper towels to catch debris when I cleaned the surface.

It seems like it would be a lot easier to get the manifold attached that
way. It might be
a little awkward to line up the head over the block.

I see 3 holes on the front and 3 on the back. I guess they are the coolant
holes.

if you unscrew the drain plug,

Yes. On the rear of block. I was able to removed it with a breaker bar.

My dealer doesn't carry one. I just now bought one off ebay for $40. What
would be the correct
torque setting for the crankshaft pulley bolt, or do you just use a breaker
bar and put it on as tight
as possible?

 

head? yes. just turn the cam if you want to close stuff up. hose out
the ports of the open valves.

cylinders? yes. but you're limited in options here. wipe the cylinder
walls as clean as you can with paper towels, bring those two pistons up
and do the other two, repeat. each time the cylinders go down, there
should be dirt left at the "high water mark". keep wiping and turning
until that's all gone. maybe use a little oil as flush after the first
couple of times to make more of this debris stick the walls.

yes! and you have a closed deck! if you had an open deck, you'd see this:
http://www.theoldone.com/articles/badtothebone/cylinder_chamfer.jpg

87ft.lbs iirc.

 

The free online (Chilton's/Haynes/part factory service)
manual for your Accord at www.Autozone.com states it's 181
ft-lbs.

For the crankshaft pulley bolt trivia fans, this Accord has
a 16 mm nominal diameter bolt.

I am curious: What did you do to destroy the crankshaft
pulley?

Good updates, Gary.

 

Since a pulley holder was not readily available, I figured I would try to
insure myself a place in the "Honda Crankshaft Pulley Hall of Fame" by
rigging something that would serve the same purpose. See my heroes at

http://www.cadvision.com/blanchas/54pontiac/honda.html

Unfortunately, there are no holes on the 1994 model, so I had to try a
differant approach. I attached 3 c-clamps on the pulley next to each other
about 1" in from the outside perimeter. I secured each c-clamp as tight as
possible, and tried to made sure the first pulley somehow engaged against
something that was iron. I figured 3 clamps tightly attached would create
enough surface area to hold the pulley from moving. Then I removed the tire,
took a 1/2" breaker bar with a 20" extension and secure the socket to the
crankshaft bolt. I rested the flex point on some stacked bricks, sleeved the
handle with a 10 foot piece of PVC and pulled down. I needed to start past
vertical to make it work, as it took every bit of a 100 degree swing.
Unfortunately, the c-clamps slipped in the initial attempts, and I lost some
of the outside edge of the pulley. When I picked up a new one at the
junkyard I watched the man in the yard remove one with air tools. He had his
hands full too. Finally, he took two heavy hammers and peened the head of
the bolt as hard as he could to free up the corrosion that was holding it in
place. After trying this about 4 times, he finally was able to remove the
bolt. I might have had better luck if I peened the head of the bolt before I
tried to remove it. But then my car isn't in a junkyard.........yet.

 

That's a shame. FWIW after the fact, any time you hit a
barrier like this, maybe ask here. The following two sites
pretty much cover everything on the net on this subject:

http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/cranktool/index.html

and

http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id6.html

 

Which holes in the engine block do I use to rinse out the coolant?

Are all six of these odd shaped holes for coolant, or is it possible that
they are for oil?
I poured a little water down them, and I didn't see anything come out of the
open drain.
Do you have a link to a closed block?

Thanks

 

coolant holes are in the snug of the cylinder liners.

not offhand. it's not as much of an issue if the deck's not open
because you don't get as much debris in there anyway, but try a gentle
hose - that'll do the trick. the oil holes are the ones on the corners
and in the middle.

 

I must have an open deck. I mistakenly poured the water down the oil holes,
so I drained all the oil. It needs changing anyway.
After pouring water in the space around the cylinder liners it drained OK
from the drain plug.

I used the 1/4" plate glass lap technique on the deck and the head, just to
make sure things were "planer". In doing the deck, I noticed that
cylinder liners were flush with the deck on the passenger side, and slightly
lower than the deck on the driver's side. I was able to improve upon this by
concentrating the lapping process on the one side . I guess these cylinder
liners could have been a breach. The stuff that I originally removed from
the top of the cylinder liners was very difficult to get off. Everything is
smooth now, and hopefully will be more receptive to the new gasket.

 

oh well!

well spotted! a skimmed head wouldn't have helped you there. make sure
you do the material on the outer edge of the block - there is supposed
to be a tiny degree of protrusion of the steel liner from the aluminum
to make full compression. you can lap a /tiny/ little extra from those
outer edges to replicate that.

it could have indeed. while you're in there, do an "idiot test" and
just check the liner casting is not lose in any way. it shouldn't have
shifted, but if it did, it would be a shame to discover it later.

good. remember, cleanliness is absolutely freakin' essential! even
microscopic abrasive grit ruins engines real fast. i learned this the
hard way when i was a youth - it wasn't until i learned about failure
analysis stuff later that i realized what i'd been doing wrong.
seriously, i'd previously been lucky to get 10k out of any engine i'd
had the head off and "cleaned" with abrasives.