Q. Acura vs. Toyota - Parts & Reliabity?

I need to make a decision quick between a 93 Acura Integra RS and a 96
Toyota Tercel (both about 188,000km on the odometer). I know they are
very different cars, and both have their appeal to me. I prefer the
comfort, performance and feeling of security (from accidents) you get
driving the Integra, but I like the economy (gas mileage) of the
Tercel. (I drove both around the block, and for what its worth, the
Tercel seems to have a very quiet engine and responsive steering). The
hanging question to help me decide is which car is more reliable, and
does one (ie. the Integra) cost far more than the other when it comes
to replacement parts?

I've researched reliability ratings on both these cars on MSN Autos
(the Tercel has a better record), but I'm not sure that the stats of
one site can be the final word on reliability, and there's nothing
there about parts prices. Can anyone answer these questions for
certain, from either research or experience? Thanks!

 

I can tell you that Honda parts are usually much cheaper than Toyotas. And
Tercels are pretty
much stripped. When I was looking for a new one back then, it didn't even
have a radio or rear speakers. A wheel cover was an option

Though, depending who owned the Integra, it can be in a very bad shape or in
very poor shape. If it was the sedan, you might get better deal, as it might
not be heavily modded or raced.

 

get an acura after 94, thats would be right decision.
even 93 is good too.

 

(Rory Calhoun) wrote in

If you drove either car "around the block", you are not gettng the true
feel of either one. They are definitely aimed at different people with
different desires.

We have both a '91 Integra and a '99 Tercel. I've owned the Integra since
new, and it currently has almost 246K miles on it. My wife has had the
Tercel for a year and a half. It has about 61K miles.

The Integra is faster and has far better handling. Directional stability
and steering are much crisper than the Tercel, even with worn bushings in
the Integra. The Integra is a *much* more satisfying and entertaining car
to drive on account of these things.

The Integra's engine is somewhat coarse over 3,000rpm. The Tercel's is
smooth at first, but can get very buzzy at high revs when the engine is
worn, worse than the Integra.

The Tercel is NOT a driver's car, unlike the Integra. It bobs and weaves
and wallows at over 50mph, a consequence of its cheap suspension and narrow
tires. It requires constant steering correction on the highway. Since its
intended market is looking for cheap motoring rather than entertainment,
this is acceptable to Tercel buyers.

Parts are about the same cost for both cars. Some are cheaper at Acura
dealers, others are cheaper at Toyota dealers. Toyota is perhaps slightly
less expensive overall. Either are much more expensive than domestics for
parts, but with proper care, they last a long long time between breakages.

The Integras brakes require *far* more maintenance than the Tercel's. If
you live in a snowy area, you need to service your brakes at least twice
per year, or else the rears especially will seize. The Tercel's can safely
be serviced once per year in the same environment, and only the fronts at
that, since the rears are drums and much more trouble-free.

The Tercel's exhaust went to semi-stainless at one point (don't know what
year), and those last forever. The mild-steel ones rust like any other. The
Integra will be more likely to have exhaust trouble from corrosion, since
they never had semi-stainless.

Both have timing belts that must be replaced after about 6 years. The
Integra's engine will probably suffer valve damage if the belt breaks. The
Tercel's engine is a different design, so will not. This means you MUST
change the Integra's timing belt when the manufacturer says. The Tercel's
you can leave until it breaks, as long as you don't mind needing a tow and
not making it to work that day.

Other than that, both cars are about equal in reliability and propensity to
rust, all other factors being the same.

Under my driving, our Integra gets about 28mpg and the Tercel about 32mpg.

 

It goes to the initial design philosophy of the manufacturer. Honda
designs highly efficient engines that crater if the belt breaks, which
is a so-called "interference" design. The valves must move up out of
the way before the piston gets to the top, or they crash into each
other. The non-interference engine Toyota makes is perhaps a tad less
efficient, because there is more compromise in the shape of the
combustion space or other parameters. The manufacturer asks itself,
"Do we give them the maximum performance and efficiency that we know
how to give, or do we save the deadbeats from themselves?"

 

I'm sorry to ashtray from topic; I was just wondering what's the difference
between engine designs that allows one car (Toyota) to survive a timing belt
damage and is disastrous to another ( Integra)?

What type of engine build up does the 92 civic dx have? If the timing belt
breaks, will there be any internal damage to the engine (bent valves, etc)?

Thanks!

 

If I am not mistaken, Hondas have a higher
compression ratio than Toyotas. That means less
space in the combustion chamber, making it much
more difficult or impossible to 'make the space'
for a non-interference design.

t

 

This is one of the oldest of the FAQs.
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/faq.html#interference

The Integra, like almost all Hondas, is an "interference" design. The
Tercel, like almost all Toyotas, is NOT an "interference" design. Honda
likes to do things the hard way.

The probability of damage is great, but not *certain*. You _can_ get lucky.
<dirtyharry>
Ya gotta ask yourself, do I feel lucky today?
</dirtyharry>

(That's a paraphrase, so no flames from cinemaphiles!)

 

Makes sense. I like the topics you discuss in your FAQ.

Good job and thanks!

John

 

Can you know that the timing belt needs replacement by looking at it
for signs of wear, or do you just replace it every so many miles even
if it looks in perfect condition? I was told by a mechanic to replace
the timing belt immediately after any car purchase, so that I could
have a receipt that showed the date and mileage when it was replaced,
so I could know when to replace it the next time. But it seems to me a
grand waste of money to replace it if it is still in perfect working
condition.

 

I forgot I had another question about this item... could I replace a
timing belt myself, or does it require a mechanic to do so?
I have very little experience working on car mechanics, but I'm
competent when it comes to repairing stuff, so if its a simple job that
doesn't require special tools or pulling out an engine block...

 

Can you know that the timing belt needs replacement by looking at it
for signs of wear, or do you just replace it every so many miles even
if it looks in perfect condition? I was told by a mechanic to replace
the timing belt immediately after any car purchase, so that I could
have a receipt that showed the date and mileage when it was replaced,
so I could know when to replace it the next time. But it seems to me a
grand waste of money to replace it if it is still in perfect working
condition.

Sometimes the belt shows signs of wear before it fails, but not often enough
to bet your engine on. Following the stated replacement intervals is the
only reasonably safe way to go - and even that has a finite risk. The
specified interval is probably the best balance of costs.

The big problem is that the belt doesn't usually break, but more often the
teeth break off. The layer that fails just isn't visible (even with the belt
off) so going by belt appearance is no more reliable than going by
appearance of the accelerator pedal.

I changed the belt on my (non-interference) Volvo engine way later than it
should have been. There were some tiny cracks in the outside surface, but it
looked good otherwise. However, I could pick the teeth off with my
thumbnail!

Mike

 

It is a beast. Actually, the one step that makes strong men cry is getting
the crank bolt loose. Special tools are only part of the problem - the bolt
is so tight that it usually takes a serious impact wrench to get it loose. I
bought a 500 ft-lb air impact wrench and still had to buy a special tool to
hold the crank pulley when we did the belt on my son's Acura. Of course, a
torque wrench with 200 ft-lb capacity is required for reassembly

Important note: you can't use the shadetree trick of bracing a socket handle
and bumping the starter to break the crank bolt loose... the engine turns
the wrong way.

But if you can get a shop to break the %^$#!! thing loose and retighten it
enough to get you home, it isn't awful. Attention to detail - especially
getting the belt on the same way it came off, not one tooth off on one
sprocket even though the cam wants to turn - is important. If you get it
wrong, or don't get the belt tensioned properly, you can do really serious
damage (or at least have to start over).

All told, you should give it a lot of thought if you want to DIY. I put it
in the category of replacing a clutch - one with a *really* tight bolt
holding something!.

Mike

 

in addition to the holding tool, i highly recommend a 3/4" breaker bar
with [most importantly] the 3/4" extension. like you, i recently tried
replacing my timing belt without air tools, and with a normal 1/2"
drive, i thought i was for sure going to break something. with the 3/4"
tools however, that bolt came loose immediately & without undue effort.
[it was disapointing in a way because i'd even gone to the trouble of
buying a 5' "torque amplifier" just in case!] anyway, i wondered if i'd
perhaps loosened it with my 1/2" drive efforts earlier, but i did my
other civic a couple of weeks later & again, the bolt came loose
immediately with the 3/4" drive. very worthwhile investment. the 3/4"
extension bar is nearly 1" diameter solid tool steel. no torque-robbing
wind-up in that puppy!

 

wrote in

Not that hard. You just have to be very detail-oriented and do lots of
reading first. You can start here:
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/faq.html#crankbolt
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/faq.html#beltmark

and for a pictorial howto,
http://timingbelt.soben.com/

Also an excellent idea is to buy the Helm manual and study the procedures
given there. Helm really is the very best.
www.helminc.com

Personally, I used a 250lb electric impact wrench rented for $10/day from
an industrial supply place. 30 seconds of back-and-forth and the bolt
buzzed right off. I was surprised it was so easy; not all of them are.

 

Can you clarify? Do you mean you used a 3/4" drive socket, too? Or did you
use an adapter to go from the 3/4" drive extension to 1/2" socket?

 

3/4" > 1/2" adapter. also worth mention is that the 17mm-1/2" socket i
have snugly fits the hole in the holding tool - helps keep everything in
place.

 

E wrote
Re loosening the crankshaft pulley bolt on Hooooooondas --

Then excellent tip.

Anyone want to buy a 1/2" drive breaker bar and two ten-inch long, 1/2"
drive extenders?

Shucks, I likely will only do one more timing belt change on my beloved 1991
Civic anyway. I'll just buy better health insurance for the period that will
include when I do the job.

 

but elle, you'll end up buying another honda, maybe even the new crx
when it comes out, so you may as well buy the tool you /know/ you
crave... cheaper than the health insurance too!

 

I guess the benefit of the electric is that the
force is always 250ft-lbs, versus air impact
which may reduce in strength as the compressor
attempts to keep up with the demand for more
air! Thats the prob I had, even though I had a
650ft-lb air wrench, the compressor couldn't
even keep up for 10 seconds.

t