R.I.P. General Motors (1931-2006)

Actually GM sells more cars than Toyota and Honda sell Camrys and Accords.
It just that they have different brand names on the hood.


mike hunt

 

You should be able to get a lot of post holes in a minivan.

 

I don't know why exactly but I understand your argument better than Mike
Hunt's.
When I set out to buy a new car we wanted to see what was out there for no
more than $25,000 (taxes, title, you name it, included) and it would have to
jump start my heart and make me want to drive again. I didn't want a silly
ass sports car and I didn't want a silly ass little car designed like a pair
of zig zag stripe sneakers from China. In 2001 I saw a Prius up close and
thought it was ugly. When I found out it ran more on gas than electricity I
said no way am I going to buy this. It didn't even have cruise control.
Anyway, 2003 comes along and I'm bored silly with every car I looked at.
Honestly, I wouldn't touch a Toyota or a Honda if my life depended on it,
which explains my detest of "comparable cars" . It's only factual if anyone
of those cars is desirable. To me they are not.
Anyway, It's 2003, I still have $25,000 cash so we bought the Prius and
figured it's the least ugly of the bunch.
Purchasing a car is purely subjective as you point out and if you think a
hybrid is a sham that's fine with me. I'm very happy getting the EPA mileage
estimate, as a matter of fact it's the only car I've ever owned that has.
And as far as batteries are concerned if the scare was true it doesn't
matter to me. $2000 is a drop in the bucket. My wide screen TV cost 3 times
that and that's more likely to break. Old folks drop $2000 at Foxwoods like
it was water.
My Chevy astro van (Roman Wheels) used 3286 gallons of gasoline during it's
69,000 miles, and my Prius used 1353 gallons during it's 69000 miles, for a
difference of 1933 gallons X $2.00 a gallon = $3866 . This is the ONLY
comparison worth anything to me. What I had before and what I have now. I
believe many Prius owners feel the same way.
Do me a favor and don't belittle my effort in replying to you with a stupid
one liner. I'm hoping you're above that.
mark_

 

and paint your windows white and everything will look grand...

 

I'm thinking a surge in these problems started when our gov't allowed
outsourcing to other countries without the tax issues

 

You will disappointed I'm sure...

 

Well, it shouldn't have been constructed in China. What is needed are
trade rules that require minimum standards for the protection of the
environment and employees. As for building it here; do we have a
shortage of electricity? I remember that was the claim during the
California crises. Then it turned out that it was just Enron
manipulating the energy market. Put those bums in jail and there
hasn't been a shortage since.

California didn't run out of electricity until they deregulated the
market.

Agree on that.

 

At this point in history, unions are now dragging down more
companies than they are helping. At this point, unions have made
many US companies uncompetitive in the world market. That affects
the world economy, the US economy and MY economy. Your ludicrous
statement that no one but owners has the right to bitch about a
union aside, I DO have the right.

 

It's not a matter of easier. The companies agreed to the union
contracts because they were forced to. They are now trying to get
reasonable contract concessions from the unions. Are they having
much success? Who's fault is that? I guess the unions simply want
the companies to go bankrupt. Then we'll see what those big
contracts will be worth.

 

OK, add all the Matrix, Celica, Prius, Corolla,etc to the Toyota
list, and the civic and all it's variants to Honda, and how does it
compare?
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Comparing a Prius to a Chevy Astro is not the appropriate comparison.

Compare it to the closest size gas Toyota in size.... the Corolla - which
gets 14 mpg less but costs $7500 less.

So in your first 100K and 10 years (assuming that battery is still good),
you will have saved a whopping $1550 in gas (over 10 years) in your green
mobile.

And that $1550 in gas cost you $7500 extra UP FRONT with a $2000 battery
waiting for you.

You didn't even save the cost of the replacement battery.

This is what I mean by sham, but hey, what a feeling!

 

The big difference is most big companies don't give a shit about their
employes (Walmart being one of them)

That's why unions are needed.

 

NYC ran out of electricity one day in August 2002 (or maybe 2003).

It is not just a matter of markets. It is also imrpoving the infrastruture.

Jeff

 

Actually, it is a pilot.

Show us the statistics and data, including the trends in sales.

Jeff

 

Yet which do you think will hold their value as a percentage of the original
sales price?

The Matrix. Japanese car makes hold their value better because consumers
feel they have better qualtiy and value than American makes.

Jeff

 

Your statements are not supported by facts nor by history. They are
the propaganda promoted by those who really are the problem.

When top management blames all others, then top management is the
reason for failure. I have worked in GM. When management could not
understand a problem, suggest a solution, OR make a decision, instead,
a union guy would say screw them and help me solve the problem right
then and there. Too many GM managers are business school and law
school graduates. Therefore innovation is measured in terms of costs.
Innovation is routinely stifled.

A typical example that every product oriented person in the industry
has long understood. A problem literally created by management who
does not come from where the work gets done. How many horsepower
does every liter of engine produce? The technology was developed and
ready for production in GM in 1975. After 1990, even foreign
competition was selling 70 Hp per liter engines. GM does not sell such
engines standard in all cars. GM does not put both horsepower and
liters on their window stickers - so that you will remain ignorant. A
GM car therefore must have two extra pistons - and all that extra
hardware - to do what oversea competition does. Therefore GM products
cost more to build. This directly traceable to top GM management -
many don't even drive. GM products cost more to build because world
standard technology - pioneered in GM 30+ years ago - still is not
standard in all GM products.

So who does GM blame for these higher costs? Unions? Government?
Tax structure? American education? These higher GM costs are due to
stifled technology in GM products. 70 Horsepower per liter being one
in hundreds of examples why GM products cost more to build than even
Mercedes Benz (comparatively equipped).

When an American company was in trouble - steel, autos, AT&T, IBM,
Xerox, Apple Computer, etc - in every case top management were business
school and law school graduates who could not see innovation if it was
pushed up their nose. In every case, such management used bean counter
reasoning to blame others. What is called innovation to a product guy
is called increased costs to a bean counter. There is no entry for
innovation on a spread sheet.

GM could have replaced Jack Smith with a 'car guy' - an
expression that should mean something to every person with an opinion.
Instead GM promoted a bean counter: whose entire history was devoid of
product development and without 'dirt under his fingernails'. Rick
Wagoner was not even running North American operations profitably when
he was selected to lead GM. Now every GM operation is losing money -
because the top man does not come from where the work gets done.
Because the top man still does not even understand why every GM car
must - as was necessary even 15 years ago - must have a world standard
70 Hp per liter engine. This is too product orient for a bean counter
who views innovation as increased costs. The 70 HP/l engine being a
classic symptom of a company whose products are so bad that Ward
Automotive once noted GM could not even give away their six cylinder
engine to Toyota - for free. Toyota would never have an engine that
poor inside their products.

30 years ago, every manufacturer was eliminating push rod engines.
Overhead cams were essential to lowering costs. Today, Toyota cars
have no pushrod engines. But this year, GM will release two new engine
designs - both using push rods. Business school graduates judge
innovation in terms of costs. Therefore GM continues to use obsolete
technology designs - which is why GM cars cost more to build and
require more man-hours to assemble. This directly traceable to top
management that does not come from where the work gets done; then
blames workers.

What will save GM is what saved Chrysler and Ford. Threat of
bankruptcy is required to remove the only problem - top management.
Patriots believe in the free market - and not a lie called "Buy
American". 'Buy American' only protects top managers who then
take big bonuses and golden parachutes while downsizing - destroying
American jobs. How do you save those union jobs? The proof was in
1979 Chrysler and 1981 Ford. Buy the best. Those who bought Honda
and VW saved Chrysler and Ford. Buy using free market principles to
remove Rick Wagoner and his large staff of overpaid law and business
school 'car designers' (and yes, GM design teams answer to
accountants rather than accountants working for car guys). American
jobs will continue to disappear as long as those bean counters use
business school principles to design cars. As long at they preach
lies about 'smoke stack industries', then Americans must continue
to downsize.

Who is GM's top designer? A graphics artist? How then does GM get
70 Hp per liter engines in all products? They don't. Instead
promote 'Buy American'. Instead blame the unions for cars that must
have two extra cylinders just to be equivalent. To bean counters, a 70
Hp per liter engine means increased cost. People who have even
stifled the 70 Hp/liter engine for 30 years - long after that
technology was standard even in competition products - then invent
myths such as pension costs. How to make a 1990 spread sheet look
profitable? Underfund the pension fund while those retirees were still
working. Now GM will drop that $multi-billion pension fund shortfall
on the US public - PBGC - while paying top management more bonuses.

 

Actually your now showing that you don't know very much about engines. OHC
is a lot more complicated than even engines with two extra cylinders and
costs more rather than saving any. GM's "obsolete" pushrod engines have
been refined for many years are are able to push a car to the same mpg as
an overly complex OHC engine without requiring any maintenance at 60k mile
intervals. Sure the OHC engine can boast more HP per liter but when that
HP only comes near peak rpm and at a sacrifice of torque its not worth it.
To actually get to use all that high HP you have to run the engine where
its least efficient so you get a tradeoff of either driving extremely slow
to get the advertised mpg or getting low mpg and getting that advertised
HP. Pushrod engines have peak torque at a low rpm where normal everyday
driving occurs so you get good power while still getting good mpg. The
general car buying public doesn't understand this so they hear the bigger
HP numbers and think those are the better engines. Instead of refining the
simpler technology its quicker to take a shortcut and stick in an OHC amnd
advertise the numbers.

 

I've worked for the same non-union company for just short of 39
years. They treat me just fine thanks you.

 

Sure it is. You just proved it by sidestepping the healthcare/drug issue
which is one of GM's biggest employee benefit costs.

The companies agreed to the union

Really?? You'll have to explain how that works.


They are now trying to get

Who defines "reasonable"?

Are they having

Too soon to tell.

Who's fault is that? I guess the unions simply want

No, but they don't want their members to go bankrupt, either.

Dave

 

If it weren't for the standards set by union companies, your experience
might be much different.

Dave