Radar Detector Recomendation

the stumbling block for this debate seems to be not understanding what
"prima facie" means. in english, "on the face of it" or "on first
appearance" would be working translations.

if you're trying to make a legal case, something may have prima facie
merit to proceed, but those initial facts will be tested in the court.
"prima facie" does /NOT/ mean the case is done and dusted.

same applies to speed enforcement. there is a prima facie limit of 65
on many freeways in california. but the speed limit enforced by the
highway patrol is about 80. and that depends on the weather. bad
weather, they'll enforce 65, or lower. no such thing as black and white.

 

No,originally,the US 55 NMSL was enacted in 1974 to save gas,after the 1973
OPEC oil crisis.(embargo)
(I was wrong;it's the National -Maximum- Speed Limit)

In the US,catalytics were first used in 1975. NMSL predates that.

 

Until you begin to deal with legal concepts - such as speed limits and
the setting and application thereof. Then it becomes a matter of custom
and usage and what the courts say it is.

Prevailing is prevailing; prima facie limit is the posted limit.

You can take the words out of context and make them say what you wish but...

Apples and oranges, Jim. If the maximum permissible speed, by statute,
in California is 65 m/h (and I don't know that it is) then that is the
speed limit. If, for whatever reason, the CHP doesn't write a ticket
until you exceed 80 m/h that does not change the prima facie speed limit.

As for enforcement of speeds LESS than the posted limit due to
conditions? Gimme a break. How many times have you seen or heard of
that happening absent a traffic crash? In such a case, assuming the
driver said "Officer, I don't know what happened. I was driving along
at about 50 m/h in this 65 m/h zone and I suddenly lost control" I
challenge you to find even one example where the driver was charged with
driving 50 m/h in a 65 m/h zone. You can find, I'm sure, numerous "Too
Fast for Conditions" (with no specific speed alleged) or "Failure to
Reduce Speed to Avoid Crash"

One other point with prima facie... you mention that it provides a basis
to proceed. Well, that's true and that basis is always subject to
rebuttal. Not unlike the 0.08% blood alcohol being DUI. That's an
absolute. If you are at or above that level, you're drunk. Period. In
the range of 0.06 - 0.079 a prima facie case of DUI can be made but the
defendant can rebut that presumption.

Speeding violations are known as "absolute liability" offenses. The
only element of the offense is exceeding the speed limit. You don't
have to know you were speeding, you don't have to WANT to speed, etc.
Do 51 in a 50 and you're guilty. End of story.

 

And required by the US in 1981. The NMSL was touted as an energy saver
and then the numbers were cooked to show how much safer everything
was... NOT!

 

<snip for clarity>

so why the confusion? every argument presented so far contends that
they're the same. they're not!

 

If it's law to follow the posted signs, then will you shut up when I
show you a posted highway sign that says "Slower Traffic Keep Right"?

 

I say we debate the PRACTICAL and not the Idealist position here.
Fact is,the police only enforce some arbitrary speed well ABOVE the posted
SL(+5 or +10),and you have NO way of knowing what that might be at any
given time. Often,it depends on the demeanor *at the time* of the
patrolling officer.

Ever since the 55 NMSL,it's been clearly apparent that the *majority* of
drivers do NOT obey posted limits,unless there's police actually present or
known speed traps.
Thus there's a "prevailing speed" (or "true average speed")of the traffic
actually present on the roadway.

I-4 in Orlando,everybody knows the usual speed is 70-75 mph for a 55 mph
posted limit. and that's IN TOWN,dense traffic!
and the hazardous effect from LLBs and rolling roadblocks(RRB?) is clearly
apparent.

It's 80 or higher outside of the urban areas.

 

we have three rrb's on this thread - and they're all highly sensitive to
accidents. could it be that they get to witness lots of them, by some
strange coincidence???

 

Not exactly.

Prima Facie Speed Limits:

Numerical speed limits (statutory and posted) that, if exceeded, justify
enforcement action. However, if the accused motorist's actions can be proven
to be safe, reasonable and prudent for the prevailing conditions, the charge
of speeding shall be dismissed by the court of jurisdiction.


Polfus

 

Why don't you show him that there is a law in the US that makes it illegal
to go less than the prevailing speed even if that is over the posted speed
limit?

Answer: You can not.

Polfus

 

The law in question was a law that said that you had to go at the
prevailing speed limit, even if it is faster than the posted signs.

Of course, you have to stay on the right if you are not passing.

Jeff

 

Why don't you show him that there is a law in the US that makes it illegal
to go less than the prevailing speed even if that is over the posted speed
limit?

Answer: You can not.[/QUOTE]

It is the law in this state: slower traffic keep right.

The concept does not address the actual speeds in question. It simply
says, slower traffic keep right.

 

Not quite. In PA, you cannot be convicted for go less than 10 mph over
the limit in 55 mph or slower zone, and 5 mph over the limit in a faster
than 55 mph zone.

jeff

 

It is the law in this state: slower traffic keep right.

The concept does not address the actual speeds in question. It simply
says, slower traffic keep right.[/QUOTE]

Yeap, that means that if you're going 100 mph over the limit, and there
is faster traffic, you have to move to the right lane.

 

As far as I know, there's no official "quota", but the cops' supervisors
have a general idea what to expect when a patrolman is assigned to speed
duty. If he comes back with too few tickets, he'd better be able to explain
why.

 

The argument (which you obviously can't deal with) is that the posted
maximum speed limit is as fast as traffic is permitted to travel.

 

you have willful myopia. i've just come back from shopping, 70 in my
crx in a 55 zone. i was going the same speed as everyone else, and
guess what kind of vehicle was behind me before i turned off the
freeway? [hint: permitted != posted]

 

I'm sure they don't get your drift.....

They must be real fun to work around.
I've encountered a couple of them at work.They made work harder to do.
"oh,you can't do that....." ____ I just did,and the customer is satisfied
and happy,and is going to give us more of his business.
and when I didn't do some "don't do" things,the customers were unhappy,and
business dropped.They went elsewhere.


the key is having the common sense to know when it's possible to deviate
from procedure without harm.

 

Try driving the speed limit or keep it to 5-10 over. You won't have any
problems. If you're planning to drive 20+ over the limit, you are a hazard
and should be pulled over. Common sense really.