Saab Complaint

Hi,
May I ask a question? How come did you buy the Saab then?
So you can cross post your rant and drag on and on? Thanks for your time
and let's move onto different thread.
Tony

 

Safety? He he

According to http://www.euroncap.com/, both the Toyota Corolla and the Honda
Civic did very well actually. Both got 4 stars. Other Honda and Toyota
models also got 4 stars.

.... Oh, the both the Saab 9-3 and the 9-5 got 5 stars.

Paul

 

YOu're right, you should not have had blowouts. You were due some
decent customer service. The tires I have at Wal-Mart have 80K
warrantees with maintenance...if I ran over a nail (which I did) they
replace it without telling me it was my fault. You'd figure a high
priced outfit like Saab would do the same.


I always liked Saabs, never having driven one, but having seen them on
the road in my native NE all the time. But I realize they are quirky,
expensive cars.

I can't understand all the hostility and snippiness here. Maybe they
are defensive b/c they realize they paid 2x the price for something
that is less reliable than a Toyota Camry?

Keep bitching to you Saab place. There must be something wrong with
the alignment.

$245 is ridiculous for a tire. I had BF Goodrich's installed on my
Toyota at Wal-mart (80 K miles warantee) for about $60 each including
hazard, installation, etc. They seem like great tires. It's been 50K
miles and they have plenty of tread left on them. Maybe not up to the
"standards" of the stuffy people that seem to be on this Saab site,
but I like them nonetheless. Also consider getting touring instead of
"sport" tires. They are made more for comfort and long life. Maybe
"sport" tires blowout easier? I don't know.

 

mi

That's another problem with esoteric cars. The dealer density is low,
so another Saab dealer is 100 miles away or so.

$275 for a tire is robbery so is the oil change. How many quarts does
it take? 20? I change my own oil for $10. It makes me feel good, as
it's one of the only car type things I can do.

My toyota has 135K miles on it, 8 years old, and HAS NEVER HAD A MAJOR
PROBLEM. It gets 35mpg around town, still. There are other Toyotas
with the same story. No transmission problems, no engine problems, no
defects, recalls, nothing. No engine fires (Ford) or transmissions
wearing out after 65K (Ford again).

I agree, you should sell your Saab. The maintenance and replacement
parts are probably lower on a standard honda or toyota so I'd go for
one of those. There are more dealers per area so you will have a
choice. The parts are cheaper as they come from Japan and not high
cost Sweden.

 

That's misleading though. Due to Toyota and Honda high reliability
you are less likely to lose control of your car (due to blowouts and
such) as you are (see OP's blowouts) in a SAAB. I'd rather drive a
car with 4 stars that never gets in accidents than a 5 star safety car
that has tire blowouts and probably engine failures and god knows what
else.

Those 5 starts won't due you much good when the transmission seizes on
you and launches you headlong into a semi.

 

( ^ Spelling and grammar corrected)

A semi what? Those 5 stars make sure both myself and the other people (such
as pedestrians) remain alive, rather than "4 star perhaps dead". Read the
detail behind the summary tables.

Since GM took over Saab, it has been a long climb for Saab to return to the
same standards of safety they were revered for ten years ago. Saab today
makes a good car and a much better car than it did at the launch of the 9-3
and 9-5 model ranges. Look at the EuroNCAP results for Saabs a couple of
years ago (such as the 2000 model) - that tells a different story.

This thread is discussing the 2000 model 9-3, which is not the same car as
Saab produce today. The owner of that car is having a grumble about the
standard and quality of tyres fitted three years ago.

If he's thinking of changing to another car because he feels unsafe in his
2000 model, then he should take a long, hard look at those kinds of
statistics. The other manufacturers that he was looking at, namely Toyota
and Honda, do indeed fair much better than the 2000 model Saab 9-3, but do
not fair as well as the current Saab range.

Paul

 

( ^ Spelling and grammar corrected)

A semi what? Those 5 stars make sure both myself and the other people (such
as pedestrians) remain alive, rather than "4 star perhaps dead". Read the
detail behind the summary tables.

Since GM took over Saab, it has been a long climb for Saab to return to the
same standards of safety they were revered for ten years ago. Saab today
makes a good car and a much better car than it did at the launch of the 9-3
and 9-5 model ranges. Look at the EuroNCAP results for Saabs a couple of
years ago (such as the 2000 model) - that tells a different story.

This thread is discussing the 2000 model 9-3, which is not the same car as
Saab produce today. The owner of that car is having a grumble about the
standard and quality of tyres fitted three years ago.

If he's thinking of changing to another car because he feels unsafe in his
2000 model, then he should take a long, hard look at those kinds of
statistics. The other manufacturers that he was looking at, namely Toyota
and Honda, do indeed fair much better than the 2000 model Saab 9-3, but do
not fair as well as the current Saab range.

Paul

 

Brian Mate.
Even in the "overpriced Quirky" Saab group, we fully agree, That price
should buy you a set of tyres (I'm in the UK, OK LOL). Maybe slightly
more for the set if you buy/fit the correct speed/weight/load rating
tyres.

Michelin are pricey, and some like the Pilot Premacy are excellent.

When my last car(A Skoda) needed tyres, I wanted quality, but budget, so
I fitted BF Goodrich Tourings, because they were the best compromise
between, price, hardness and quality (car is only slow).

When I needed tyres for the Saab, I went with Avon for a set of ZV1's.
Excellent tyre, and not much more than the Goodrich's.

Just for the record, at least in Europe, I think that Goodriches are
made by Michelin as a licensed brand name.

Look after tyres, check the pressure, and condition, make sure they are
the right ratings for your car, and make sure that your
alignment/suspension is set up properly, and not faulty/damaged, and not
a lot can go wrong. If it does, then either you drive over bottle/spike,
or the tyre is faulty. The tyre maker should sort it, that may be
through the car dealer. It may also be direct. Depends on how the law in
different countries works.

 

Brian Mate.
Even in the "overpriced Quirky" Saab group, we fully agree, That price
should buy you a set of tyres (I'm in the UK, OK LOL). Maybe slightly
more for the set if you buy/fit the correct speed/weight/load rating
tyres.

Michelin are pricey, and some like the Pilot Premacy are excellent.

When my last car(A Skoda) needed tyres, I wanted quality, but budget, so
I fitted BF Goodrich Tourings, because they were the best compromise
between, price, hardness and quality (car is only slow).

When I needed tyres for the Saab, I went with Avon for a set of ZV1's.
Excellent tyre, and not much more than the Goodrich's.

Just for the record, at least in Europe, I think that Goodriches are
made by Michelin as a licensed brand name.

Look after tyres, check the pressure, and condition, make sure they are
the right ratings for your car, and make sure that your
alignment/suspension is set up properly, and not faulty/damaged, and not
a lot can go wrong. If it does, then either you drive over bottle/spike,
or the tyre is faulty. The tyre maker should sort it, that may be
through the car dealer. It may also be direct. Depends on how the law in
different countries works.

 

Paul Halliday wrote:
:: Since GM took over Saab, it has been a long climb for Saab to return
:: to the same standards of safety they were revered for ten years ago.
:: Saab today makes a good car and a much better car than it did at the
:: launch of the 9-3 and 9-5 model ranges. Look at the EuroNCAP results
:: for Saabs a couple of years ago (such as the 2000 model) - that
:: tells a different story.

What a load of rubbish Paul. )
Just recently, Swedish Folksam (insurance company), has named the Saab 9-5
the safest car driving the Swedish streets! They investigated 76.000
accidents in a period from 1996 - 2001 (or was it 2002). No other car is as
safe as the Saab 9-5 (1998-model). So Saab is building safer cars than ever.
Meaning that the Saab 9-5 from -98 up is as safe as anything else. I tend
not to put too much faith in EuroNCAP-results as it gives a stationary
picture. Whereas the Folksam statistic is "reallife".

Here's a link, observe that the Saab 9-3 also is on top:
http://www.folksam.se/engelsk/howsafeisyourcar.htm

Cheers!

 

Paul Halliday wrote:
:: Since GM took over Saab, it has been a long climb for Saab to return
:: to the same standards of safety they were revered for ten years ago.
:: Saab today makes a good car and a much better car than it did at the
:: launch of the 9-3 and 9-5 model ranges. Look at the EuroNCAP results
:: for Saabs a couple of years ago (such as the 2000 model) - that
:: tells a different story.

What a load of rubbish Paul. )
Just recently, Swedish Folksam (insurance company), has named the Saab 9-5
the safest car driving the Swedish streets! They investigated 76.000
accidents in a period from 1996 - 2001 (or was it 2002). No other car is as
safe as the Saab 9-5 (1998-model). So Saab is building safer cars than ever.
Meaning that the Saab 9-5 from -98 up is as safe as anything else. I tend
not to put too much faith in EuroNCAP-results as it gives a stationary
picture. Whereas the Folksam statistic is "reallife".

Here's a link, observe that the Saab 9-3 also is on top:
http://www.folksam.se/engelsk/howsafeisyourcar.htm

Cheers!

 

A troll posts and runs. I am not running.

I am glad to clear up your mistaken impressions. I do indeed own
a new Saab. I have indeed had two problems with it that I believe
I should not have had. I do in fact believe that a Usenet
newsgroup is one place this problem should be publicized and
discussed.

I believe that I am in fact being trolled in this thread by
several of you regulars. That's OK: I know how to use trolls in
general to make my point in a newsgroup. It's your choice:
You can either look good by addressing the problem; or you can
look childish by trolling a "newbie" to your newsgroup. People
finding these posts on groups.google.com will be able to tell the
difference years and years from now.

I selected the newsgroups I wanted to post to. It was and is my
selection to make. It is rude for you or anyone else to remove
them.

I posted to toyota and honda auto groups for two reasons:

1) Toyotas and Hondas are Saab's major compeditors in the US.
Posters to those groups might very well have constructive new
perspectives to add, regarding the problems I am having with my
Saab.

2) Toyota and Honda have been particularly successful in
controlling quality, and in resolving owner complaints. Saab (and
GM) could learn a thing or two from those companies.

This is quibbling, but I'll answer your one-liner anyway.

"catastrophic" happens to be a term often used in Court -- it
describes a quick (sometimes explosive) tire failure that
destroys the tire and also puts the car and its occupants at
risk. It can also imply that the failed tire was defective in
some way.

1) I handled myself quite well at the dealer.

You can't keep making this assumption over and over again after
I've assured you otherwise, and assume you're making some kind
of important point. You start to look a little foolish.

2) Dealers MUST handle even bad customers better than my Saab
dealer did, if they want repeat business. The dealer doesn't get
a "pass" because you personally don't like my post.


[snip]

My tires shredded, partly because the wheelrims sat right down at
the border area between the sidewall and the tire tread, and
sliced through them when they blew. It happened very quickly -- a
matter of a few seconds.

This behavior not only destroys a lightly damaged tire, it is
also very bad for the wheelrim as well. Saab is getting at
least some wheel rim complaints because of this problem, which
happens at low speeds as well as high speeds.

Saab engineers should have anticipated this behavior upon tire
failure, and designed their wheelrims to at least minimize it.


[snip]

The rear tire blew. I was assured that on a Saab, the alignment
would not be affected.

But yes, I've had my alignment checked anyway: Two months ago,
and again yesterday. Absolutely no change. It's just fine.

I am certainly claiming that these Michelins are faulty, based on
my experience with them.

Two blowouts in six months on nearly new OEM tires is a very good
reason for an owner to register a complaint with his car
manufacturer.

A good company would replace those tires for free if they have
some service records of other owners making the same complaints:
This is Freshman QA Engineering. It's also Freshmen Marketing
Management.


[snip]

mb

 

Left front; Right Rear.

Alignment fine both times.

No obvious external punctures or cuts both times.

You are reeel good at quibbling. You are not so good at
examining a problem in the way a QA Engineer or Operations
Manager at a well-managed auto company would examine the problem.

I have already responded to you at length about why my personal
experience might very well be important to a lot of Saab owners.

.... fact is; you don't need to have a significant fraction of
users reporting a problem for it to exist in a complex product
like an automobile or a computer. With a complex product, a
problem serious enough to cost a Manufacturer lots of money can
indeed exist in less than one percent of its product users.

As an example, I read that Ford SUV tire problems occurred in
less than a tenth of one percent of their owners (one in a
thousand), when Ford finally had to issue a Recall notice and the
first cases went to Trial.

I am therefore not surprised that this general-purpose
enthusiasts' newsgroup isn't overwhelmed with tire blowout
stories. They are nonetheless important.

*****

I've gone back and re-read your responses to my earlier post,
where I discussed this in more detail.

It's apparent that you didn't understand the basic concepts I
described there. I guess you don't have much background in basic
QA engineering or Business Operations Management and research.
That's OK.

Please go back and re-read what I wrote. It is much more
important to you and the major purchase choices you make in your
own private life than you might have thought.

Indeed, some of them have.

Once again, it is apparent to me that you don't understand the
basic Engineering and QA problems that cause product failures in
complex modern technical products.

I was expecting at least a few knowledgeable posters here in the
Saab group to focus on the problem I reported, and NOT to start
with personal namecalling.

Focusing on the issue instead of the emotional content of a
trouble call, is an elementary help-desk management technique. I
thought there were some people here with the tech background and
business experience to realize that. Apparently, I was wrong.

This surprises me. It is common practice in lots of other Usenet
technical newsgroups -- esp. the computer newsgroups, where
people are often angry and frustrated, and the threads settle
down enough to resolve whatever problem that was reported.

Even the other auto newsgroups perform better than alt.autos.saab
has responded here. This group is behaving more like a cliquish
TeenBunny fan gossip group than a real automobile newsgroup.

ORIGINAL POST: Brittany Spears is singing off-key!

GROUP RESPONSE: You moron! You arrogant prick! You troll!

I have a Dunlop on the Right Rear now because it was all I could
find. I intend to replace all four tires as soon as I can find a
reliable, well-made midprice tire.

Researching cars and tires has changed in the last few years. I
have no idea what tire I really should be buying, how to
personally examine a new tire for design and quality, or what to
look for in a tire Warrantee these days.

I had an experience that normally only manufacturers' Negligence
would cause. Negligence constitutes "criminal" product
liability on the part of Saab and Michelin..

In other words, you see my point but don't want to deal with it.

Nope. My experience gives me every justification to raise these
questions; right here in this newsgroup.

I hope that Saab owners like you can either affirm similar
experiences, or produce information that would argue against my
strong suspicions here.

To the contrary, you guys are showing posting behavior I expect
to see from kids in a showbiz fan gossip group:


[snip]

mb

 

I didn't see your post until just now.

I have Michelin 195 X 60 X 15 MXV M+X tires on my 2001 Saab Base
9-3 coupe.

These are the standard tires that came as original equipment with
the car. If you phone a Michelin retailer and tell them you have
my car; this is the tire they would try to sell you as an OEM
replacement tire.

The Left Front and Right Rear tires have blown out. One in March
at about 4500 miles; and one this week at 10,300 miles.

The car shows only 10,350 miles now. 3000 miles were leisurely
500-mile trips to nearby cities in the American Far West, where
freeways are quite good: Very "easy" miles for tire wear. I
usually drive less than 70 MPH because of traffic conditions. I
don't think I've ever driven more than 82 MPH or so (and that's
stretching it), even on my trip to Nevada.

******

*******

Informally; I now think I should consider three possible causes:
Road damage, defective wheel rim design, and defective tires.

++++ ROAD DAMAGE

I drive conservatively, mostly on well-maintained freeways.
Neither blowout occurred after my hitting anything on the road. I
believe it is possible but unlikely that driving conditions or my
driving habits caused the blowout.

++++ WHEEL RIMS

I have noticed twice now, that my wheel rims are apparently
designed to literally shred any tire on my Saab 9-3 that loses
much pressure at all. Here is what happens:

1) The tire loses minimal pressure and the sidewall begins to
flex on the rim. This happens in seconds, well before a driver
could possibly notice.

2) The flexing causes the tire sidewalls to flex outward. This
brings the tread belt into proximity with the wheel rim edges.

3) A ring on the sidewall where the sidewall joins the tread belt
comes into contact with the wheel rim edge well before the tire
loses critical pressure. This creates heat and friction, and
weakens the sidewall.

3) Tire pressure continues to drop. On a Saab 9-3, this almost
always brings the tire tread belt to rest INSIDE the wheel rim,
between the wheel rim edges.

4) With the wheel rim edges holding the tread belt, the sidewalls
come into contact with the wheel rim edges at the same consistant
ring of points around the tire. Consistant friction and heat at
that narrow contact ring wears the tire out very quickly. But
that isn't all......

5) Saab wheel wheel rim edges are rather narrow. Once in contact
with the sidewalls, these wheel rim edges literally cut through
the sidewall in seconds. Blowout.

I emathise; you don't need to lose much pressure. This design
flaw literally turns a slow leak into a catastrophic blowout in
seconds.

This is a design safety issue, both for Saab, and for any tire
manufacturer that sells tires for Saab.

I am going to guess that if you underinflate an OEM Michelin tire
on your late-model Saab 9-3 by maybe ten or fifteen percent (not
much -- maybe the equivalent of a four hour freeway drive?), this
underinflation will allow enough flexing to start this process.
Your tire will blow out on the next 45 minute freeway drive you
take, maybe one out of three times. Your guesses might vary, but
they will still be very high like this.


****

Go check for yourself. Measure your tire tread width and compare
that to your wheel rim width. If your sidewall naturally flexes
outward and your tread belt can fit inside your rims with a
little flexing; you're in trouble.

Owners of new Saabs need to check their tire pressure often.
While the wheel rim problem probably doesn't cause blowouts, it
does destroy a tire quickly and can destroy the wheel rim quickly
as well. If you have a problem while driving, you literally have
SECONDS to get your Saab stopped.

+++++ DEFECTIVE TIRES

NOTE: On my last blowout, part of my tire tread belt was wedged
inside my wheel rim. The wheel rim edges had cut my tire sidewall
free from my tread belt all the way around the rim. It might have
taken as long as ten seconds at less than 65 MPH.

I vote for defective tires. Both times, my Michelin sidewalls
blew apart at less than 65 MPH. This simply should not happen in
normal use, even with a high mileage tire. A tire is defective
almost by definition, if the sidewall bubbles, deforms, splits or
separates under normal driving conditions: This is de-facto
evidence that the tire is defective. Because tires often cause
accidents when they fail in this way, this becomes a safety
issue.

I don't know whether all michelin tires are like this or not. All
I know at this point is my own experience, combined the informal
reports I've gotten from about tire store service people now, at
about a dozen local tire dealerships. Both Michelin and Saab are
suspiciously defensive when I've contacted them about replacing
my tires.

When I call and tell tire dealers that I have a Saab, local tire
dealers steer me away from Michelin tires. They say it's because
they've seen some tire failures on Saabs, but they won't get too
much more specific than that. Several Dealers also told me that
they think around five Michelin tires in a hundred are failing (a
very, very high number).

This is 'anecdotal' evidence. I pay attention to it, though --
But again; you can't take information like this to the bank. In
the United States, it would take legal examination of proprietary
service records on a National scale to establish this as a
product safety issue. That doesn't mean it ISN'T a product
safety issue, though.

I don't know enough about modern tire manufacturing,
merchandising or tire labelling to have these answers quickly. My
tires were made in Italy, though. I think I can determine the
tire run and get some serial numbers in a day or two.

Yes it would, and thank you. No one at Saab or at Michelin wants
to be helpful with this information, and I'm not surprised. It
has nothing to do with how "angry" I might be when I call them.
This is a liability issue for them and it's obvious that *no one*
wants to be involved.

mb

 

Kenneth,

Thanks for your reasonable response. I think you got my points.

That means the others replying here got my points, too, but just
don't want to deal with it.

****

My little tire problem has turned out to be a whole lot more
serious than I had originally thought -- and I thought it was
serious then.

You should have seen that tire. Both sidewalls were separated
from the tread belt, which was partially wedged into the wheel
rim belly. It happened quickly, in around ten seconds.

The tire service tech brought over a couple other people and the
manager to look at the tire, and they all looked it over
carefully for ten minutes or so. They have a good scenario for
the failure. They say it's a combination of a design flaw that
lets the wheel rim edges cut through the tire sidewalls, and a
tire that lets its tread casing fit inside the wheel rim edges in
the first place. This is definitely eyebrow-raising territory.

This is also important for Toyota and Honda drivers as well.
Their cars could indeed have the same problems that I have
experienced in my Saab.

******

The broader issue, is whether Saab is going to institute design
and QA procedures that catch these problems before they develop;
and then institute a customer handling process that keeps owners
driving safely and satisfied with our cars. I love Saabs, but
what I'm experiencing is just not acceptable.

The silly troll responses I've mostly fielded here this week just
serves to illustrate the problem that Saab has in general:
Denying the issue and attempting to insult the victim is not
dealing with the problem.

My responses also demonstrate why Honda and Toyota are winning
the US market. People responding from the honda and toyota
newsgroups are not delightful, but they are reasonable -- and so
is the way those companies are handling design flaws and customer
issues.


mb

 

Actually in the US, there is supposed to be government oversight
of the design, manufacture, marketing and servicing of tires.
They are considered to be a critical safety product, and tire
manufacturers are supposed to be held to a higher quality
standard than might be reasonable for other less critical
products.

My phone calls to tire dealers indicate a lot, but prove little.
They DO give me reason to report a one-in-twenty failure rate
for my Michelin tires, and to then ask the questions I'm asking.

No.

I mean that even with its flaws and its obvious price
differential, Honda Civics seem to be built to higher quality
standards, and are safer to drive, less expensive to maintain,
last as long, and have better customer care than Saabs do, and
those points have become a critical issues for me this week.

Balance of reliability, maintenance costs, product safety,
customer service, and being fun to drive. Saab is not winning the
sales battle in the US, partly because it comes up short in these
areas compared to even inexpensive Japanese cars like Toyota
corollas and Honda civics.

Being a Saab owner, I regret having to say this.

I sure would this week.

Some good points, some not; Paul. Here in the US, we don't have
much of a tire choice when we take delivery on a new car: We
pretty much have to take what the Manufacturer insists they will
provide. We have no chance to research, choose, inspect and
verify the tires that come on our new cars.

Taken in general, American new car buyers have to trust the legal
representations and Warrantees we are handed at the dealership
when we take delivery of our new cars.

Certainly in general, Saab can not expect owners to throw away a
new set of tires on a brand new car on the first day,
particularly when we don't know whether it will void part of our
Warrantees and probably don't know much about the quality of the
OEM tires anyway. New buyers must legally rely on the Saab's
promise that our new car is designed well and safe to drive as
they have equipped it. I am finding that my Saab wasn't careful;
and that Saab won't stand behind the problem that has resulted.

The fact remains that I had a problem with my Saab that I
shouldn't have had. Saab and Michelin need to be held to account
for that.

You can't call it "slander," because I am fairly describing
events that really did happen to me. Besides, the word you
wanted was "libel" in the United States. Even at that, my
comments come under the heading of "fair comment," which means I
get to express my opinion about Saab and Michelin as loudly as I
want to.


mb

 

Followups fixed *again*. I don't see the word "troll" in my post,
I see "flame war".

My impressions are, if anything, being reinforced.

Yes, they will. I'm not sure that that'll turn out the way you think,
but go ahead and think whatever you want.

Bullshit. Bull fucking shit. It is *MY* choice what groups to post
to. If I choose not to post a reply to your drivel across a dozen and
a half unrelated groups, that is *MY* choice.

No they're not. Entirely differnet demographics.

Yeah, you got two blowouts. Just like you would have with a toyota or
a honda. Bad luck, get over it.

Hello? this is kind of a central point, and you ignore it. You are
expanding *your* experience and assuming we all share it. We do not.

So you *have* done some homework, it seems. Have you checked into the
links that Laura provided for you?

In sharp contrast to your behavior here...

You a lawyer or something? (not intended as a compliment, by the
way).

By whom?

Based on what? A statistical anomaly?

Fine, and you apparently did that and they found your claims
to be baseless. Next?

Only if they value you as a customer. When my tranny went, many thousand
miles out of warranty, Saab paid for it anyway. If they didn't want to
take care of your tires, maybe, just maybe, it isn't their problem.

Is that the part where I ask you inconvenient things about your accusing
Saab of "criminal" behavior?

 

I think that when you use a word like "criminal" and assert that Saab is
aware of a dangerous situation and go on accuse of a cover-up akin to the
Ford Explorer/Bridgestone example, you are drawing an extremely thin line
between what is "libel" and what is "fair comment."

After spending a good 20 minutes reading all of these posts (and that's 20
minutes I will NEVER GET BACK), I think I might find it funny if MB and Saab
ended up in litigation. It would at least add to entertainment value.

That's not meant to offend MB, who obviously has, in his mind, a very real
issue he's dealing with.

RiCK

 

I think that when you use a word like "criminal" and assert that Saab is
aware of a dangerous situation and go on accuse of a cover-up akin to the
Ford Explorer/Bridgestone example, you are drawing an extremely thin line
between what is "libel" and what is "fair comment."

After spending a good 20 minutes reading all of these posts (and that's 20
minutes I will NEVER GET BACK), I think I might find it funny if MB and Saab
ended up in litigation. It would at least add to entertainment value.

That's not meant to offend MB, who obviously has, in his mind, a very real
issue he's dealing with.

RiCK

 

Stop re-posting my posts!