TeGGeR's injector problems...

I had the Motorvac service done today by a local Canadian Tire franchise.
Stupid, stupid me. I figured, how bad could they possibly **** up something
that simple? (I've never said "****" before, have I?)

Well, the monkey they'd hired DID **** it up that bad ("but he's been a
mechanic for 15 years!").
Word to the wise: DO NOT patronize Canadian Tire. They hire the same
moronic simians AutoZone does. Y'see, AutoStupe does not do business in
Canada, so the grunting Neanderthal knuckle-draggers that happen to be
Canadian residents get jobs with Crappy Tire instead of AutoStupe.

Not only did the monkey botch the job badly, the manager gave me my money
back AND offered to pay me (at his shop rate) whatever it took me to fix my
back seat, which the monkey *really* messed up in his misguided attempt at
accessing the fuel pump. I will charge him 3 hours at $70 per hour. Let's
see how well that goes over...

WAY too much detail to write here.

The basics:

Pictures of back seat removal here:
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/fuel-pump_back-seat/
These are straight off the camera, no Photoshopping or captions. I'm too
exhausted to do that right now.

It took me two hours just to bend the back seat cushion bars straight again
so everything worked properly and there was no looseness. That back seat is
pretty flimsy. It weighs about ten pounds. It's basically a wire perimeter
with foam formed around it and a fabric skin. I must have had it in and out
at least 18 times before it fit properly again.

The monkey tried to remove the back seat to get at the fuel pump. All he
did was wreck things because he didn't know how it went together. He never
did get at the fuel pump.

Oh, and the Motorvac service? It made the vibration WORSE. We definitely
have a fuel delivery problem here.

 

I ended up getting sixty bucks worth of free stuff.

 

Hmmm, maybe some really good Motomaster spark plugs and wires??

Man, that sucks... I'd ALMOST have sympathy for ya, but you REALLY
should have known better in the first place...

 

Eleven quarts of Castrol 5W-30 and two bottles of STP injector cleaner. I
wouldn't buy that Motomaster crap.

Yeah, I know. But Motorvac isn't common where I live. Crappy Tire was one
of only four places, and the other three I trusted even less.

 

Stupid question then, but what's "Motorvac"? Sounds like a name for a
techno band.

 

Motorvac is an on-car injector/top end cleaning procedure. It uses a
special machine and a powerful solvent. The brand used to be owned by Snap-
On. I forget who owns it now.

After much investigation, it looks like it's the injectors themselves
that's causing the problem. I have to find a place that can do an "injector
pressure-drop test", which will tell me whether the injectors are all
firing the same or not. If one is out of sync with the others, they'll have
to come out for bench testing.

In retrospect, I guess I'm lucky. In 15 years and 266,000 miles, this is
the very first driveability problem I've ever had with this car.

 

if it were my car, i'd go straight for the "remove for cleaning" phase.
ultrasonic cleaning plus solvents should do the trick. and if not,
there are aftermarket performance injectors that work well and aren't
outrageously expensive.

for the future, i'd be a lot more generous with injector cleaner. i
know gas is supposed to have a degree of detergency from the pump, but
auto manufacturers are having consistent reliability problems because
the detergency level rules were relaxed a few years ago and vehicles are
now gumming up all the time. one could go into the whole paranoia about
oilco's and the benefits of both saving ingredient costs and gummed up
injection systems causing reduced gas mileage, but that would be way off
base...

 

Tegger, this testing sounds like it's going to be expensive.
Why not just replace the injectors? Seems like a remanned
set of four may be had for under $200 U.S.

What's your overall plan of attack here, assuming you go
ahead with testing and the tests indicate ___ is bad?

Obviously I'm not an expert. I am following the thread on
this at rec.autos.tech , where I don't see anyone suggesting
similar, so I must be missing something. Just curious about
all this and trying to learn.

 

Testing might not be that expensive, I don't know. First I have to phone
around for somebody who even does that kind of thing.

1) Cooling system service
2) Check TPS again
3) Injector testing

So far NOTHING's tested bad. Comboverfish has objections to the factory-
specified test methods, and he's pretty knowledgeable, so I'll recheck
stuff his way just to be sure.

This weekend I'm doing my yearly cooling system sereice, and will replace
the thermostat and temp sender. Just in case.

Just today I learned that my fuel pressure is absolutely perfect: 40 psi.
The acceptable range is 37-44 psi. So that's one more thing that doesn't
seem to be wrong.

I'll check the TPS again (properly this time; Comboverfish was right about
the wrong wire I was checking). Frankly I'm not anticipating that it will
be found to be bad. The symptoms are wrong for a bad TPS anyway.

If the TPS is good, it will be time to investigate the injectors, as that
will be the last thing left. Personally, I have a hunch it will turn out to
be a weak coil on one of the injectors.

Hmm... I never checked ignition timing. It was spot-on last time I looked.
I'll check that too just to be sure.

So am I. It's not like an old non-emissions carburetor and Kettering
distributor, which was pretty simple to figure out.

I won't post back to rec.autos.tech until I check the TPS peoperly.

 

That will likely be the next step. But first I want to eliminate as many
other variables as possible.

I'm not sure cleaning will do anything, frankly. Two Motorvacs have had no
effect. I think the problem is electrical. My mechanic says that's the most
common injector failure mode.

We'll see.

I plan to be.

 

I know people who have had multiple injector failures with Nissans and
GMs and they have always been electrical. Other than those two
manufacturers, I can't recall too many cases of injector failures.
Specifically I can't recall ever of hearing of a Honda injector
failure before.

 

Well, there's a first time for everything... trust TeGGeR to be the one!

 

Guess what? I just got a set of injectors. OEM. for $10 per injector.

I called a local U-Pull wrecker's this morning after doing the cooling
system over the weekend (which had no effect). They had maybe a dozen
Integras of various years there, and I was invited to go back and have a
look.

The parts counterman said they cost about $90 new, so I could have them for
$10 each! He obviously hasn't ever priced new OEM Keihin injectors!

My guy told me I could use injectors from either an '88-'89 Prelude, or a
'90-91 Integra, all of which use the same part number. I ended up finding a
'91 Integra GS with about 95,000 miles on it (yeah, 95K), and grabbed
those.

Most of the other Integras were all up around 150-190K miles.

The next step is those injectors. I have to wait 'till tomorrow, when I
will acquire a new set of rubber sealing rings.

If new injectors don't fix this, I'm only out about $60 total and I will
have almost-new injectors, so it's worth a gamble.


There will be pictures, of course. Stay tuned...

 

You bet. Good job at the U-Pull Wreckers. Sounds like a good
investment to me. I look forward to your update.

I too had luck at my local Honda junkyard this past
Saturday. Amazingly, I quickly located a bent control arm,
literally just lying around, for my suspension renovation
project. After some false starts, today I made real progress
pulling this old control arm's larger bushing. I am not
quite there yet. I will update in the other thread I have
going on this. Hopefully I will have a methodology for the
amateur (based of course on much input here) that is not too
labor intensive nor does it require a mega-ton hydraulic
shop press.

 

I'm watching that. The machine shop that did my bushings last year has gone
T.U., so I was contemplating pushing them in and out myself.

I was just going to use a 6" bench vise and some heat. I was going to heat
up the control arm with a torch (gently), and put the new bushings in the
freezer for a while, kind of like what they do when replacing a ring gear
on a flywheel.

Last year the machinist told me the smaller bushings on the rear came out
very easily with an air chisel because they were so small. The big ones
needed much of the capacity of the press he used.

 

Nope, TeGGeR is not the first.
ALL early Integras had defective injectors. Production in 1986, 1987
and maybe into 1988. Mostly they worked for around 50K to 60K miles. I
used Techron on a routine basis and got about 95K out of mine. Had to
replace all 4. Honda should have covered this since all these cars came
back for the same problem. Techs. were well versed in the replacement
procedure. I recall buying the parts for about $50 or $60 each at the
time.

I recall going thru all the same diagnostics before determining the
injectors had to go. I had to pay for 1 hour in labor for diagnosis,
but the techs were pretty sure they know what was up. So I provided
some parts and they did some useful work inside the hour.

 

wrote in

Well, there's an update. My injectors appear to have been just fine. I
replaced them to no change at all in the vibration. See the thread in
rec.autos.tech for more.

 

Have you ruled out the oxygen sensor?

 

Good point. I just called my guy and he says it's definitely not the oxygen
sensor. Now he's saying...maybe it is...one of the engine mounts.

We've already ruled out the front mount, which leaves the rear
(a *PIG* to get at...) or one of the side mounts. They're $100 each.

I wanna see what Comboverfish says. I'm also mulling over letting the
dealer try their hand at it...

Nobody's posted to the thread in rec.autos.tech yet.

 

Yet I noticed you felt there were a lot of signs that it was
electrical in nature...

I hope this mystery is solved soon!

Yes, I'm still watching the rec.autos.tech thread.

Was looking at your FAQ site and see a bunch of people have
since submitted to the "Readers' Rides" section. Nice. Also,
interesting: Black seems to be the color of choice for Honda
enthusiasts. My Civic is black, too.

More importantly, I just emailed Merle (listed at the
Readers' Rides site) about his new control arm bushings. I
am having second thoughts about the Mugen's, based on J.
Beam's comments that they're harsher than he likes, and want
to see what Merle has and how they feel.