the future of motor oil?

According to that paper, GTL does *not* produce something better than PAO,
rather something which *almost* approaches PAO in some respects at lower
cost... which is partly due to the use of "cheap natural gas" as a
feedstock. It's being proposed a competitor to the hydrotreated
petro-based lubes... which some lubricants companies are selling for close
to the price of a real (PAO) synthetic. Kind ironic really.

 

I was reading that in a Lubes & Greases article on the increased use of
PAO.

I think one thing we tend to forget is value added tax is part of the
typical price. Here's one online UK souce for Mobil 1 0W-40:

<http://www.camskill.co.uk/products.php?plid=m1b8s25p33&tbv=MOBIL_OILS_/_MOBIL_1_-_0W40_4L_Accessories_&_Misc_Parts_Oils_-_Mobil&PHPSESSID=c719cd6dd1c9fd8eeec8e926dde21527>

So at an exchange rate of 1.9092 that would be about $61. A 5 quart
container of Mobil 1 at a US Wal-Mart is typically $19-22 depending
on location (I haven't seen 0W-40 in this weight though). Even at
a typical US auto parts store price of $5/qt + sale tax, the UK
stuff should be at least twice as expensive (including all taxes).

Again - VAT and other taxes are added.

Even so, the "typical" viscosity range for a VW spec 0W-30 isn't going
to be anywhere near that of one meeting GF-4 (the "starburst").

They've got a spec # to look for, and pretty much only a few "synthetic"
oils are marketed as meeting said specs in the US.

Of course Red Line blends polyol ester oils. Among more mainstream
oil makers, there's Motul with a variety of ester-only oils.

I've talked to people in Europe, and it's my impression that most people
take their cars for longer drives and generally take taxis or public
transportation in cities.

I thought perhaps the hydrocracked product should be replacing so-called
"conventional" oils, which is happening to some degree.

 

The same store has Mobil 1 0W-40 in liter bottles at £9.99 (or about $19
US). I've seen Mobil 1 0W-40 as low as $4.38 (Wal-Mart) to $5.50 (auto
parts store).

<http://www.camskill.co.uk/products.php?plid=m1b8s25p42&tbv=MOBIL_OILS_/_MOBIL_1_-_1_0W40_1L_Accessories_&_Misc_Parts_Oils_-_Mobil&PHPSESSID=c719cd6dd1c9fd8eeec8e926dde21527>

 

First, the exchange rate is artificially high right now because of
investment conditions in the U.S. Second, the discounting of goods, in
general, in the U.K. and Europe is no where near as developed as in the
U.S. People get their legs broken for undercutting the franchises.
Basically free enterprise does not work very well in the EU and UK in
particular. I'm sure you've seen posts here from U.K. owners bemoaning the
lack of discounting, i.e. competitive pricing for parts. Possibly they
even still have RPM (Resale Price Maintenance), like we used to have here.

But it has nothing to do with crude price and the price you see includes
VAT - it's illegal to advertize goods at a price without the VAT included.
Like I said, there's no reason the price should be 3-4x higher. In fact if
you compare against the price of a premium petro-based engine oil in the
U.K., Mobil1 costs ~2x the price... about the same price ratio as in the
U.S.

By definition it's going to be near in terms of SAE ratings. If you're
worrying about a few points of viscosity, you're fretting about nothing -
it doesn't matter.

If VW has a spec # (what is it ?) which is not covered by off the shelf
products, all the more reason to avoid their cars.

So what! Some ester blending agent is needed in all PAO synthetics to
cover seal swell. Ester-only oils have been proven time and time again to
be unsuitable for auto-IC engines - wrong lubricant for the job.

Yeah well I've lived there and I still visit and drive there. Inner city
dwellers of large cities may not even bother with the hassle of owning a
car... just renting as necessary. I can assure you that suburban and
smaller city people drive a lot of short trips.

But it's still being sold as "synthetic" and priced close to synthetic. It
may also be present, in relatively small quantities, as a blending agent in
petro-based stuff, to help meet VI and other specs.

 

My manager is Italian. He told me that in Italy one can't even add
oil to a car; it has to be taken to a licensed repair shop.

Als0 - that was a discount price from an internet retailer. It might
be more expensive at your average retailer.

I know there's no particular reason why. However - people are paying
the prices we're paying for Mobil 1 - just for "conventional" oils.
Those oils may be better than what we consider "conventional" though.

I realize that most engines tend to be tolerant - some more so than
others. VW's position may simply be from a German tendency to
overthink everything.

It's a bunch of standards - VW 502.00 for gasoline and 505.00/505.01
for diesels and 503.00/503.01 for extended-drains. I can find oil
meeting those standards on the shelf at AutoZone or other parts stores.
Not many choices and they're pricey, but no more so than the Mobil 1
I'm currently using.

<http://www.volkswagen-environment.de/buster/buster.asp?i=_content/praxis_1650.asp>

Mercedes-Benz has the 229.3 and 229.5 standards for extended drains.
However, MBUSA covers all maintenance during the warranty period.

I don't use them simply because they're awfully expensive. I have
used ester-only gear lubes though.

The impression I got was that the kind of "severe duty" driving we see
in the US is uncommon.

I was referring to Group II oils marketed by Chevron-Texaco and
Pennzoil - like "IsoSyn" and "PureBase".

 

I'd like to know how they enforce that.

Discount of such items in the U.K. is a minor activity - most people who
DIY get their stuff from similar outlets to us like Asda, which is owned by
Wal-Mart... though they rarely get such high discounts.

I still dunno wjhat you mean by "better" - there are limits to what you can
do with oil. Excessive additives to get, e.g. a higher acid buffering
factor for extended mileage, often bring other compromises. IMO the oils
we have in the U.S. are as good as anywhere. The Euros get screwed at

Like I've been saying, having the auto mfrs define oil "standards" is
madness. Lubricants mfrs are just as likely to ignore them -- VW's
presence in the U.S. is precarious enough that it would not be surprising
-- though their oils very likely perform at least as well. If I were a
lube mfr I would not go to the trouble of listing every single auto mfr's
half-baked "specs" on the container. I am also suspicious that this is all
part of the current fad for "free" maintenance.

I dunno what you mean by "severe". If it's extreme temps, in general there
are likely less places in Europe with the temp extremes we see but they do
exist. To me, the worst thing you can do to an oil is pollute it with
water and combustion contaminants... leading to sludge formation. Modern
oils stand up to sustained high temps quite well, certainly much better
than in the past, and engines work better to keep things controlled.

 

What I meant by "better" is that apparently the API standard is
not as stringent at ACEA A1. Longer oil change intervals don't
freak out most European car owners.

The "free maintenance" thing seems to be primarily BMW and Mercedes-
Benz. I remember when Mitsubishi was offering a limited time
free maintenance offer.

As for the other stuff, you'll find any number of different
"manufacturers' standards" on bottles of motor oil these days.
The VW/BMW/MBZ standards are on the beginning. I've seen motor
oil bottles listing stuff like GM 4718M (Corvette), and various
standards from Ford, Chrysler, and GM. I've even seen fairly
ordinary bottles of Exxon Superflo 5W-30 claiming to meet GM's
cold-weather pumping standard (forgot the spec #).

Nah - I meant short-trip driving, stop & go, trailers, or excessive
idling.

My current car is turbocharged, so I figure Mobil 1 is a good choice
for the application.

 

Apparently enforcement isn't a huge issue. I think it might be legal
to top off the fluids, but a full oil change is only supposed to be
performed by a licensed shop. Customizing a car yourself is near
impossible. The only legal way to do that would be through a licensed
performance tuner. There are actually restrictions on what kind of
tires can be placed on any given car, and he told me it's even on the
registration card.

Almost sounds like Japan.

Everyone seems to forget that boosting the additives means less base
oil.

BTW - going back to an ancient discussion, the third component in
Mobil 1's "Tri-Synthetic" oil is apparently alkylated naphthalene.
There's even suggestions that the current "SuperSyn" Mobil 1 products
don't use esters in favor of alkylated napthalenes. They must be
doing something right, since many used oil analysis results indicate
that it holds its viscosity extremely well, and there's speculation
that the oil itself contains no VI improvers in all weights.

<http://www.exxonmobilchemical.com/Public_PA/WorldwideEnglish/Newsroom/Newsreleases/chem_nr_280403.asp>
<http://www.exxonmobilchemical.com/Public_Products/Synthetics/Synthetic_Lubricants_and_Fluids/Worldwide/Grades_and_Datasheets/Syn_Grade_GradeAlkylated.asp>
<http://www.exxonmobilchemical.com/Public_Files/Synthetics/Synthetic_Lubricants_and_Fluids/Worldwide/Data_Sheet_Synesstic_v5.pdf>

the benefits that esters bring without lots of the drawbacks. They're
supposed to be cheaper, don't swell the seals as much, have high
detergency, and don't compete as much with additives for surface area.

These are Mobil's trademarked names for their base oils:

PAO: SpectraSyn
High Viscosity Index PAO: SuperSyn or SpectraSyn Ultra
Esters: Esterex
Alkylated Naphthalenes: Synesstic

 

It's no big deal - all politics and marketing IMO. If you bought one of
those long interval cars, would you follow the umm, "directions"?

I believe all the auto mfrs are toying with the idea of "free" maintenance
- they usually start with "free" during warranty, to see how it flies. The
dealers love it of course - gives them a prime opportunity to sabotage,
err, inspect unrelated items for later replacement... on your $$s.

Let me out it this way: such listings are not going to sway my choice of
oil.

Other than the big trailers you see here, IME, no - the Euro/UK regime is
more severe, especially short trip... though you will see lots of
small-engined cars there pulling what they call a "caravan" at certain
times of the year.

 

I'd no idea the Italians were such sheep - kinda out of character I'd
think.

I recall bringing up the lack of VI improver here shortly after SuperSyn
came out - Mobil never came out and said it directly but it was strongly
hinted at in their SuperSyn docs that it had the same effect as VI
improvers and allowed their elimination form the formula. My own
experience, with alarming noises on low temp starts, indicates that the
initial Mobil1 SuperSyn had (dangerously) insufficient high pressure
friction reducer... something brought up in some of the Forums and which
was later corrected with (increased ?) MoDDC.

Thanks for the links.

That still leaves the polar molecule of the esters missing from the formula
- I don't have exact details but AN is, based on my hazy chemistry memory,
I'd think, only very mildly polar.

 

SuperSyn is just the HVI PAO. The newer Mobil 1 EP oils are touted
as containing 50% more SuperSyn. They're also alleged to be of
slightly higher viscosity at operating temps. Makes sense to me.

BTW - I had an used oil analysis done on a sample of Mobil 1 (SL
SuperSyn) 5W-30. It's not for a Honda. It was after the 2nd time
I'd used Mobil 1 5W-30 in this car. The molydenum level was a
fairly ordinary 52 PPM, which was actually less than their
"universal" averages. Molydenum levels were really high in the
factory fill (894 PPM), although I understand it could have come
from the (moly plated) rings breaking in, assembly lube, or breakin
additive. Zinc and phosphorous levels for the Mobil 1 5W-30 seem
to be rather low too (API SL mandate?). The viscosity was also
right where it should be after 3700 miles. I've heard reports of
5W-30 oil w/ VI improver shearing down to 5W-20 after use.

I thought the problem with heavily polar ester molecules is that they
"compete" with other additives for metal surface area. I was under
the impression that one would rather have ZDDP bonding to metal parts
than esters. Castrol used to advertise the polarized nature of the
esters in Syntec and alleged protection properties until the FTC shut
them down. I've heard that Castrol's new "Start Up" motor oil
contains polarized esters, and I suppose they believe the clingy
nature of esters helps with startup.

 

Having looked at a lot of the used oil analysis results on
www.bobistheoilguy.com, I have personally come to the view that Mobil-1 is a
greatly overrated oil. At "normal" oil change intervals it does not seem
to showed lower wear metals than do any of the good conventional oils or any
of the much-maligned Group III synthetics. In fact, in many cases Mobil-1
seems to show high iron numbers in used oil analysis than do other oils.

Those of you who think you are doing your car some big favor by changing the
oil every 3mo/3,000 miles and using Mobil-1 are in most cases just pouring
money down the drain. Turbos, sub-artic dwellers, etc. being some
exceptions.

Just my well studied personal opinion, do with it as you like .

John

 

yeesh. mobil1 now has a 15(?)k mile oil i saw at wallyworld. now whats
so different/better/special that they can say itll last 15k miles?

FWIW, that would be 5 years between oil changes for me.

 

Sure - can accept that. Current car has a turbo. Last car was a GS-R
with the 8000 RPM redline. The main advantage of PAO synthetics is
resistance to oxidation under extreme conditions. Mobil 1 is my choice
because it's easy to find.

I actually ran an extended drain test on an '89 Integra on SH Mobil 1
10W-30. The wear metals were fairly normal after 11K miles/1 year.
There was a borderline high lead level though. The analysis was
similar to a typical car at a 4000 mile oil change.

 

More "SuperSyn" (HVI PAO) which makes it slightly thicker at operating
temps. Boosted detergent and total base number. Alleged to resist
viscosity breakdown exceptionally well.

Actually the Mercedes-Benz electronic system with a 229.5 spec oil is
supposed to allow for up 25K miles depending on conditions. The only
Mobil oil that meets that spec is Mobil 1 0W-40.

So you walk a lot?

 

Yes, I was working on the understanding that we *knew* that... and that
they are high molecular weight.

Of course. It was the SuperSyn blending agent which raised pour point on
the Mobil1 SuperSyn vs. the previous Tri-Synthetic.

They play different roles and take effect under different conditions. The
MoDDC supposedly "plates" to cam lobes/tappets under extreme
pressure/scuffing; the polar molecule is supposed to allow the oil to cling
to upper engine parts during drainback. I don't see how the could
"compete" - one is an additive, the other a blending agent.

They've been selling under the same marketing blurb in the U.K. for several
years - Magnatec or some such name. Dunno why the FTC would have shut them
down when you see all the other snake oil claims.

BTW I'm off on vacation for a couple of weeks so won't be participating
further in this thread.

 

I believe the German mfrs are copying Porsche with their in-engine "oil
analyzer" which advises if the oil should be changed before the 15K is
up... depending, of course, on driving profile. When your oil sump
capacity is measured in gallons, it makes more sense.

 

I know George says he's on vacation, but......

The way it was told to me by a lube chemist is that very polarized
ester molecules and antiwear compounds electrostatically bond to the
surface and that they "compete" to bond to the metal surface area.

Remember the claims of Castrol Syntec with "FSX"? They had the
TV spots where several engines were run on a bench, then drained
of oil. One by one the engines quit until the one running Syntec
was the only one still working. They also had the ad where they
drained an engine of Syntec, put one quart in, and ran it. They
were told to stop those claims because it didn't represent the
way most people use motor oil, and didn't explain that there might
be damage as a result of such use even if they didn't completely
die.

 

When the first introduced Mobil 1 in ~1975, they claimed it was good
for 25,000 miles.

 

I was lusting after a Big Wheel then, but wasn't it:

A) A 5W-20 weight oil. Mobil claimed it was acceptable in place
of typical motor oil weights of the time.

B) Primarily PAO with no esters. The reports I've heard about that
initial Mobil 1 was that it would leak out of seals at an alarming
rate.