They want to turn my rotors

That's a bad sign.

 

but al, the problem is, while that may be fine in theory, is that it's
often /not/ done correctly and what may have been a perfectly centered
disk is now machined nice and flat, but slightly off center. to get it
correct, the disk surface where mounted needs to be perfectly clean and
the disk chuck also needs to be perfectly flat & square. rust & wear
can account for deviation sufficient to make what used to be a nicely
centered disk an unusable pig.

a "first class brake job" is not the same thing to all people. i do
"first class" on my own car, and that includes disk replacement and
caliper strip-down & rebuilding. that's not what these shops are doing
- they're simply doing what they think is "cya" and "one size fits all".

if they were /really/ good, they'd know when to skim & not to skim. for
instance, many brake juddering problems on a honda are actually
incorrect lug nut torque procedure, but rather than ensure they train
their techs accordingly, they do the detroit special and go into "if the
brakes are juddering, skim the disks" mode. it shows they don't know
what they're doing and aren't addressing the customer's needs. or were
trained badly and still don't know what they're doing and aren't
addressing the customer's needs. take your pick.

 

i brake with the brakes. 5 speed, 51k miles, original pads and shoes. id
rather replace pads than clutches

 

if they have to come off to be turned anyway, they might as well be
replaced.

 

i trust goodyear, penske, walmart, pepboys all the same, which is not at
all.

 

My first accord - an 80 now has over 300K on it - rusty as hell but the
rotors on this puppy have never been turned. I would much rather spend
my money on something beneficial to me - I really do hate crooks of any
stripe. Guess the guy in the franchise muffler shops with the popeye
arms and 18" channel locks that he uses to "test" your exhaust pipes is
my fav sleeze ball. Used to live in Mpls - was a franchise muffler
shop on Lake Street in S Mpls - still remember this neanderthal with
the channel locks - have to stop in some of the muffler shops around S
WI and see if they have a similiar critter testing pipes.

 

Back when all the cars had drum brakes, the drums had to be turned every
time the shoes were changed because they were always chewed up, warped, etc.
Then they switched to disk brakes and the disks didn't show any wear at all
if the pads were changed before they completely wore out. The brake shops,
as a matter of course, did their best to convince owners that the disks had
to be turned as a matter of course because the drums always had to be. For
some unknown reason, this still seems to be going on.

The official Honda answer (page 19-13 of the '00 TL FSM) is that the rotors
should be inspected for damage and cracks, cleaned thoroughly, then measured
for runout. They should be resurfaced on the car if the runout is out of
spec, replaced if the thickness drops below spec after resurfacing. If the
runout is in spec, they should not be turned, it just shortens their useful
life.

Personally, I've been driving cars and light trucks with disk brakes since
1972 and have yet to ever have (or need to have) a rotor resurfaced.

 

Engine braking with proper technique shouldn't put significant wear on
the clutch.

 

same here. and th eonly pair i replaced was on a VW rabbit- the kind
that fell off when the caliper was off. replaced em cause i felt like
it... and they were $15/ea.

 

ASE standards is right up with your opinions. I appreciate all your inputs,
but I stand at the other end of the job.

I didn't use to turn rotors unless there was a pulsation, but now I always
turn rotors unless they are at the min spec. I view rotors as a wear item,
and the prices have come down on them quite a bit in the last few years, but
the prices of pads are going up... hmmmm
I only get paid to do the job once, and doing everything possible to prevent
a customer form coming back with a complaint is critical to our business.
It amazes me to stand at a lathe and watch a rotor that had no pulsation
take 2 cycles on the lath to straighten itself out.
I've seen cars with one hell of a pulsation clean up in one cut and others
with no pulsation take three to clean up.
Cleaning up a rotor usually only takes off .006 thousandths off the rotor.
Hardly anything in the life of the rotor.
I want you to leave with the highest quality job you can get from me, with
no problems.
So from a shops point of view it's about quality and warranty.


If you choose to not have the rotors turned and insist on this, then the
work order may read something along the lines of "shop not responsible for
any squeak, squeal, or pulsation that may occur"

OH BTW I passed the L1 Test.

--
Stephen W. Hansen
ASE Certified Master Automobile Technician
ASE Automobile Advanced Engine Performance
ASE Undercar Specialist

http://autorepair.about.com/cs/troubleshooting/l/bl_obd_main.htm
http://www.troublecodes.net/technical/

 

I checked around and see new OEM rotors at Majestic and
slhonda going for about $50 each for a 91 Civic. Ebay seems
to have some deals, though and might be worth checking.

OEM pads go for about $40 each.

I see a Larry Carley article supports your data, stating
that a cut of 0.002 inch is the min required; 0.008 inch is
the max that should be taken off. (I know you're certified
and all and have more experience doing brakes; I am mostly
posting for the archives and to be complete.)

To add some perspective: A 91 Civic sedan's rotors start at
0.83 inch thickness and have a min spec of 0.75 inch. So
with about 0.006 inch coming off at each resurfacing, figure
at most 13 resurfacings before the min spec is reached.
(Wear by itself on my never-resurfaced rotors had their
thickness down about 0.02 inch, to 0.81 inch thickness,
after 150k miles.)

I would think brake pads wouldn't need to be replaced more
than 10 times in the life of a Honda, using OEM pads. Plus,
I expect most Honda owners do not keep their Hondas beyond
200k miles. That's maybe four brake pad changes.

Assuming the car exhibits no serious brake problems, and
that the resurfacing is free like the original poster said,
I suppose then I'd consider resurfacing the rotors at every
brake pad replacement.

But as a DIY-er who feels she has a pretty good handle on
brake operation, and who has no tools for turning a rotor,
I'm inclined to leave my rotors be until I see evidence of,
say, deep scoring or serious warpage.

OTOH, if anyone knows where OEM rotors may be had for under
$25 each, or can suggest non-OEM rotors, then I'll hear you
out. I might like to put those on my car come summer.

snip but all comments noted

 

but none of this addresses the *fact* that rotors are often poorly
skimmed so that they are no longer exactly planar with the wheel. that
leads to braking problems - something much worse than the skimming
process is supposed to cure.

 

You're right. My brother's always done his own pad replacement, and
he thinks that this DIY job can save an owner more money per hour of
labor than any other single repair.

Do you know if there would be more than one OEM type of pad for this
Accord -- i.e., does Honda sell both metallic and nonmetallic
Honda-brand pads? If so, which is better?



Ron

 

Is there an Si or R version of your model? Ask your parts man. If
there are sportier variants, they will have better pads.

nb

 

don't know, but you could ask around a dealership parts dept.
personally though, having used many different types of pads over the
years, honda oem are real hard to beat. they don't score the disk, they
are relatively low dust, good fade resistance, good price. nothing not
to love! one more thing; keep the front and rears matched. some
vehicles use different materials in the front based on whether the rear
is disk or drum. if you're drum, stick with a front pad material that
matches it otherwise wet braking could be a little more interesting that
anticipated.

 

On car brake lathe
Some rotors don't come off too easy


--
Stephen W. Hansen
ASE Certified Master Automobile Technician
ASE Automobile Advanced Engine Performance
ASE Undercar Specialist

http://autorepair.about.com/cs/troubleshooting/l/bl_obd_main.htm
http://www.troublecodes.net/technical/

 

Thanks for that good advice. I'll just ask the dealer for whatever
came on the car, then.


Ron

 

I just bought Bremo slotted / drilled rotors for my accord on and can
not be happier

still have not worked them hard (must break in first 200 miles) but I
already feel less fade shorter stopping

who want to lay on the ground for the stopping test?

 

What a bunch of wacky responses!!

The real answer is that resurfacing the rotots IS standard and customary
for a proper repair. Having a fresh surface lets the new pads bed in
properly.

Do you HAVE to do it? Welll no. and I dont do it all the time either.

I would be suspicious of a shop that DIDNT say that.

-SP

 

You got that right.