Timing Belt Tension Problems

Discussion in 'General Motoring' started by Elle, Jul 17, 2007.

  1. Elle

    Elle Guest

    91 Civic, 197k miles

    I replaced the timing belt and tensioner the other day. I
    cookbooked my way through setting the tension, not knowing
    how things worked, and am pretty sure the rat-a-tat-tat I
    heard from the engine is the belt, somewhat loose, hitting
    the upper timing belt cover, for one.I just re-did the
    tensioning step, following especially Tegger's careful
    advice at
    http://groups.google.com/group/alt.autos.honda/browse_frm/thread/cf31d36fc1375d20/0f763a5f85ca7e05?lnk=st&q=teeth+pulley+(group%3Aalt.autos.honda+OR+rec.autos.makers.honda)&rnum=8#0f763a5f85ca7e05
    (post of Oct. 4, 2005), and the engine still makes the
    rat-a-tat-tat noise. I can feel the vibrations in synch with
    the rat-a-tat-tat on the when I put my hand on the upper
    timing belt cover.

    I watched for the TB's forward side (closest to the car's
    front) going tense, while the aft side went somewhat slack.
    In one attempt I did hear a little zing from the tensioner
    spring. I checked and re-checked this as I tightened the
    tensioner adjusting bolt. On my last attempt, I do not know
    if the "zing" and so tightening of the spring occurred or
    not.

    I checked the timing with a timing light, and there are no
    indications a tooth has jumped. I will continue to be very
    aware that this could happen, especially when the tensioner
    is loose or not set right.

    On my third attempt, I want to

    (1) loosen the tensioner screw more this time.
    (2) make sure I hear the "zing" from the tensioner spring
    (3) do as Jim Beam said in the above thread: (a) Turn the
    engine over three times; (b) watch the tension in the belt;
    and (c) watch that TDC on Cyl #1 aligns with the camshaft
    sprocket being in the correct "up" orientation. I will take
    the spark plugs out to make life easier this time.

    Is it true for step (3) that the TB aft side should always
    be pretty slack compared to the TB fwd side?

    Any other clues on how to get this right?

    Struggling here. Prompt responses are appreciated.
     
    Elle, Jul 17, 2007
    #1
  2. Elle

    Tegger Guest


    (Posted and mailed)

    I'm not sure where the "turn the engine over three times" came from.
    Doesn't sound right.

    When the belt was off, the tensioner should have been pushed in as far
    as it would go against its spring, then bolted so it would stay there.

    Once the belt is on again, you
    1) rotate the engine counterclockwise so as to put all the slack on the
    tensioner side, which should only be one or two teeth. 2) with a quick
    motion, loosen the tensioner bolt, which at that point should ZING out
    to take up the slack. 3) tighten the tensioner bolt BEFORE releasing the
    wrench.

    The important things are that the tensioner has to be pushed ALL the way
    back, so it can take a good run at the belt when it's released, and that
    the slack has to be entirely on the tensioner side of the belt.

    If the belt seems a bit loose even after that, you can tap the bolt head
    with your ratchet (while making sure the slack is in the right place).
    This will shock the tensioner into pushing out just a bit more.

    If you don't want to remove the covers again, you can loosen the
    tensioner, turn the engine CLOCKwise THREE TEETH, then snug the
    tensioner up again. This pulls the tensioner in a bit so you can try
    retensioning the belt. The tensioner can't get a good run at the belt in
    this case, so you may have to help it with taps from the ratchet.

    Good luck and hope this helps.
     
    Tegger, Jul 17, 2007
    #2
  3. Elle

    Tegger Guest


    (Posted and mailed)

    I'm not sure where the "turn the engine over three times" came from.
    Doesn't sound right.

    When the belt was off, the tensioner should have been pushed in as far
    as it would go against its spring, then bolted so it would stay there.

    Once the belt is on again, you
    1) rotate the engine counterclockwise so as to put all the slack on the
    tensioner side, which should only be one or two teeth. 2) with a quick
    motion, loosen the tensioner bolt, which at that point should ZING out
    to take up the slack. 3) tighten the tensioner bolt BEFORE releasing the
    wrench.

    The important things are that the tensioner has to be pushed ALL the way
    back, so it can take a good run at the belt when it's released, and that
    the slack has to be entirely on the tensioner side of the belt.

    If the belt seems a bit loose even after that, you can tap the bolt head
    with your ratchet (while making sure the slack is in the right place).
    This will shock the tensioner into pushing out just a bit more.

    If you don't want to remove the covers again, you can loosen the
    tensioner, turn the engine CLOCKwise THREE TEETH, then snug the
    tensioner up again. This pulls the tensioner in a bit so you can try
    retensioning the belt. The tensioner can't get a good run at the belt in
    this case, so you may have to help it with taps from the ratchet.

    Good luck and hope this helps.
     
    Tegger, Jul 17, 2007
    #3
  4. Elle

    Elle Guest

    Jim noted that this was a good idea after the final
    tightening of the tensioner took place.
    Do you mean so that the spring is applying as little force
    as possible to the main body of the tensioner?
    I was loosening the bolt prior to rotating the three teeth,
    watching so that a tooth did not skip. I will try the above
    instead, listening for the ZING.
    Is this the same as you describe at [***] above?
    I will try this first.

    I bear in mind that the engine has to be cold during this
    procedure.

    Unfortunately I find it too much of a battle to torque the
    tensioner bolt by going in with a socket from the top, so I
    have been removing the PS belt and alternator belt, then the
    crankshaft pulley, and going in from the bottom. I am
    rotating the left front wheel hub yada to rotate the
    crankshaft the necessary three teeth or so.

    Thank you.
     
    Elle, Jul 17, 2007
    #4
  5. Elle

    Elle Guest

    Jim noted that this was a good idea after the final
    tightening of the tensioner took place.
    Do you mean so that the spring is applying as little force
    as possible to the main body of the tensioner?
    I was loosening the bolt prior to rotating the three teeth,
    watching so that a tooth did not skip. I will try the above
    instead, listening for the ZING.
    Is this the same as you describe at [***] above?
    I will try this first.

    I bear in mind that the engine has to be cold during this
    procedure.

    Unfortunately I find it too much of a battle to torque the
    tensioner bolt by going in with a socket from the top, so I
    have been removing the PS belt and alternator belt, then the
    crankshaft pulley, and going in from the bottom. I am
    rotating the left front wheel hub yada to rotate the
    crankshaft the necessary three teeth or so.

    Thank you.
     
    Elle, Jul 17, 2007
    #5
  6. Elle

    Tegger Guest



    No, just the opposite. The spring is what pulls the tensioner against
    the belt. You have to expand (stretch) the spring as much as possible




    It would be so much better if you used a wrench on the crank pulley.
    that's the authorized wy to do this, and you get a lot more control
    ("feel") using that method.
     
    Tegger, Jul 17, 2007
    #6
  7. Elle

    Tegger Guest



    No, just the opposite. The spring is what pulls the tensioner against
    the belt. You have to expand (stretch) the spring as much as possible




    It would be so much better if you used a wrench on the crank pulley.
    that's the authorized wy to do this, and you get a lot more control
    ("feel") using that method.
     
    Tegger, Jul 17, 2007
    #7
  8. Elle

    Elle Guest

    1991 Civic, 197k miles here, manual transmission

    Darn, the timing belt slipped, and the car would not start.
    The engine is a bit flooded from three or so attempts. So
    yes, the doomsday scenario has descended. Any insight for
    the most efficient way to find the proper orientation of the
    TB is welcome. Here is my approach so far:

    1.
    Set camshaft so sprocket indicates up, marks aligned with
    the top of they cylinder head, per manual's direction to get
    all valves set "right," namely, such that Cyl #1 is at TDC.
    Immobilize camshaft.

    2.
    All spark plugs out. Stick rod down Cyl #1 spark plug hole,
    rotate crankshaft, and watch rod rise and fall. Turn
    crankshaft so that Piston #1 is at TDC. Immobilize
    crankshaft.

    3.
    Install timing belt carefully. I am bound to be off a tooth
    or two. (Or possibly 180 degrees plus or minus?).

    4.
    Reassemble, this time hopefully setting the tensioner
    correctly.

    5.
    Attempt to run engine. If it starts, then I'm off at worst a
    tooth or so. If not, then what?

    6.
    Check timing with timing light. If timing cannot be set
    correctly, then I'm likely off a tooth or so.



    So far I found I do not have to completely disconnect the PS
    pump nor remove the side engine mount to do this much.

    Thanks for the elaboration on the tensioner in the other
    post, Tegger. This helps. Please comment on the above as it
    is convenient.
     
    Elle, Jul 17, 2007
    #8
  9. Elle

    Elle Guest

    1991 Civic, 197k miles here, manual transmission

    Darn, the timing belt slipped, and the car would not start.
    The engine is a bit flooded from three or so attempts. So
    yes, the doomsday scenario has descended. Any insight for
    the most efficient way to find the proper orientation of the
    TB is welcome. Here is my approach so far:

    1.
    Set camshaft so sprocket indicates up, marks aligned with
    the top of they cylinder head, per manual's direction to get
    all valves set "right," namely, such that Cyl #1 is at TDC.
    Immobilize camshaft.

    2.
    All spark plugs out. Stick rod down Cyl #1 spark plug hole,
    rotate crankshaft, and watch rod rise and fall. Turn
    crankshaft so that Piston #1 is at TDC. Immobilize
    crankshaft.

    3.
    Install timing belt carefully. I am bound to be off a tooth
    or two. (Or possibly 180 degrees plus or minus?).

    4.
    Reassemble, this time hopefully setting the tensioner
    correctly.

    5.
    Attempt to run engine. If it starts, then I'm off at worst a
    tooth or so. If not, then what?

    6.
    Check timing with timing light. If timing cannot be set
    correctly, then I'm likely off a tooth or so.



    So far I found I do not have to completely disconnect the PS
    pump nor remove the side engine mount to do this much.

    Thanks for the elaboration on the tensioner in the other
    post, Tegger. This helps. Please comment on the above as it
    is convenient.
     
    Elle, Jul 17, 2007
    #9
  10. Elle

    Tegger Guest



    Don't panic yet.

    If I were you, though, I would not at this point try to set the pistons
    to TDC. If the cam/crank alignment is off, you need to start from
    scratch, being mindful of damage to the valves..

    First: Get the pistons all to half-way.
    Remove belt, remove spark plugs. Stick a rod down each cylinder until
    you find the pair that is closest to the top. Now carefully find out
    which way turning the crank *with a socket* results in those going DOWN.
    Turn crank that way until the pistons are all at the same height. This
    way they are out of range of the valves.

    Second: Replace the crank bolt.
    Buzz it down to approximately 50 ft lbs. Use washers if necessary to
    mimic the spacing of the crank pulley.
    LEAVE THE PULLEY AND TIMING COVER OFF!

    Third: Turn the camshaft until the #1 cylinder's valves are all closed,
    and so the marks on the cam pulley and head are matched perfectly.

    Fourth: Turn the crank *with a socket* so the #1 piston climbs UP, until
    it reaches TDC. At this point the TDC mark on the crankshaft should
    perfectly match the mark on the block. At this point it does not matter
    which way you turn the crank.

    Fifth: Push the tensioner so the spring is stretched as far as you can
    stretch it.

    Sixth: Replace the timing belt.
    Make ABSOLUTELY certain the cam, crank and head/block marks are aligned
    PERFECTLY. It is distressingly easy to get it off by one tooth. You will
    likely have to turn the cam pulley slightly to get the teeth to line up.
    When the belt goes on, make sure all the slack is on the tensioner side.

    Seventh: Double check the cam and crank alignment marks.

    Eighth: With the wrench on the crank bolt (or your hand on the cam
    pulley), make certain all the slack is on the tensioner side, then
    loosen the tensioner bolt with a quick motion. It ought to ZING up then
    stop. Still maintaining pressure on the crank bolt, tighten the
    tensioner bolt.

    Ninth: Triple check the marks and the tension. If OK, remove crank bolt,
    reinstall timing cover, crank pulley, crank bolt, etc.
     
    Tegger, Jul 17, 2007
    #10
  11. Elle

    Tegger Guest



    Don't panic yet.

    If I were you, though, I would not at this point try to set the pistons
    to TDC. If the cam/crank alignment is off, you need to start from
    scratch, being mindful of damage to the valves..

    First: Get the pistons all to half-way.
    Remove belt, remove spark plugs. Stick a rod down each cylinder until
    you find the pair that is closest to the top. Now carefully find out
    which way turning the crank *with a socket* results in those going DOWN.
    Turn crank that way until the pistons are all at the same height. This
    way they are out of range of the valves.

    Second: Replace the crank bolt.
    Buzz it down to approximately 50 ft lbs. Use washers if necessary to
    mimic the spacing of the crank pulley.
    LEAVE THE PULLEY AND TIMING COVER OFF!

    Third: Turn the camshaft until the #1 cylinder's valves are all closed,
    and so the marks on the cam pulley and head are matched perfectly.

    Fourth: Turn the crank *with a socket* so the #1 piston climbs UP, until
    it reaches TDC. At this point the TDC mark on the crankshaft should
    perfectly match the mark on the block. At this point it does not matter
    which way you turn the crank.

    Fifth: Push the tensioner so the spring is stretched as far as you can
    stretch it.

    Sixth: Replace the timing belt.
    Make ABSOLUTELY certain the cam, crank and head/block marks are aligned
    PERFECTLY. It is distressingly easy to get it off by one tooth. You will
    likely have to turn the cam pulley slightly to get the teeth to line up.
    When the belt goes on, make sure all the slack is on the tensioner side.

    Seventh: Double check the cam and crank alignment marks.

    Eighth: With the wrench on the crank bolt (or your hand on the cam
    pulley), make certain all the slack is on the tensioner side, then
    loosen the tensioner bolt with a quick motion. It ought to ZING up then
    stop. Still maintaining pressure on the crank bolt, tighten the
    tensioner bolt.

    Ninth: Triple check the marks and the tension. If OK, remove crank bolt,
    reinstall timing cover, crank pulley, crank bolt, etc.
     
    Tegger, Jul 17, 2007
    #11
  12. Elle

    Tegger Guest

    207.14.116.130:


    So long as the #1 piston is moving UP when you turn!

    If the #1 is moving DOWN, 2 and 3 are moving up, and their valves are OPEN!
     
    Tegger, Jul 18, 2007
    #12
  13. Elle

    Tegger Guest

    207.14.116.130:


    So long as the #1 piston is moving UP when you turn!

    If the #1 is moving DOWN, 2 and 3 are moving up, and their valves are OPEN!
     
    Tegger, Jul 18, 2007
    #13
  14. Elle

    Elle Guest

    Success! After thinking most of the afternoon this was going
    to be the one maintenance job where I surrendered and had
    the car towed to a shop, my Civic and I are sitting pretty.
    No more rat-a-tat-tat; the timing is perfect (or is near as
    a person can see with a timing light and those eye-straining
    crankshaft pulley marks!).

    I examined that tensioner on and off the car, read and
    re-read your notes, Tegger, read and re-read a few other
    descriptions for setting the tension, and somehow stumbled
    into the right tension setting. I was halfway through when I
    read your post a few hours ago, Tegger, and was happy to see
    some corroboration for what I was doing. E.g., um,
    discovering/remembering this is an interference engine, so
    the cam shaft is going to be obstructed unless the pistons
    are all about mid-way.

    I checked and re-checked the alignment of cam and crank.
    When I finally felt I had the tension set, I rotated all a
    few revolutions by hand to see that (1) the belt was not
    slipping or slapping (it was doing that earlier; now I know
    this is a sign of the wrong tension, even though the belt
    was holding while I drove it around the other day); and (2)
    to re-check my piston #1 TDC with the camshaft's "up" marks.

    As for getting the cam and crank aligned correctly, with
    belt on, I can understand if no one believes me, because I
    am still in shock, but I got it right on the first try. I
    thought sure there would be two to five more tries.

    I shorted the service check connector and checked the
    timing. The distributor needed a tiny bit of rotation to put
    the center red mark (on the crankshaft pulley) yada where it
    is supposed to be.

    I left the PS pump and cruise control actuator disconnected
    and off to the side while I troubleshot all this.

    Tegger, I still need to explore that tensioner's operation.
    This might be worth a write-up, because the darn thing's
    operation is still pretty confusing to me. Still, with your
    comments and some experimenting with it installed and nearly
    all the interference down near the crank removed, I made
    progress. I still feel stupid, but less so.

    In any event, I very much appreciate your prompt response.
    It got me going down the right paths. I did indeed panic a
    bit when the belt slipped with the car running.

    I think I should go to the casino now, since I surely was
    so lucky today. :)
     
    Elle, Jul 18, 2007
    #14
  15. Elle

    Elle Guest

    Success! After thinking most of the afternoon this was going
    to be the one maintenance job where I surrendered and had
    the car towed to a shop, my Civic and I are sitting pretty.
    No more rat-a-tat-tat; the timing is perfect (or is near as
    a person can see with a timing light and those eye-straining
    crankshaft pulley marks!).

    I examined that tensioner on and off the car, read and
    re-read your notes, Tegger, read and re-read a few other
    descriptions for setting the tension, and somehow stumbled
    into the right tension setting. I was halfway through when I
    read your post a few hours ago, Tegger, and was happy to see
    some corroboration for what I was doing. E.g., um,
    discovering/remembering this is an interference engine, so
    the cam shaft is going to be obstructed unless the pistons
    are all about mid-way.

    I checked and re-checked the alignment of cam and crank.
    When I finally felt I had the tension set, I rotated all a
    few revolutions by hand to see that (1) the belt was not
    slipping or slapping (it was doing that earlier; now I know
    this is a sign of the wrong tension, even though the belt
    was holding while I drove it around the other day); and (2)
    to re-check my piston #1 TDC with the camshaft's "up" marks.

    As for getting the cam and crank aligned correctly, with
    belt on, I can understand if no one believes me, because I
    am still in shock, but I got it right on the first try. I
    thought sure there would be two to five more tries.

    I shorted the service check connector and checked the
    timing. The distributor needed a tiny bit of rotation to put
    the center red mark (on the crankshaft pulley) yada where it
    is supposed to be.

    I left the PS pump and cruise control actuator disconnected
    and off to the side while I troubleshot all this.

    Tegger, I still need to explore that tensioner's operation.
    This might be worth a write-up, because the darn thing's
    operation is still pretty confusing to me. Still, with your
    comments and some experimenting with it installed and nearly
    all the interference down near the crank removed, I made
    progress. I still feel stupid, but less so.

    In any event, I very much appreciate your prompt response.
    It got me going down the right paths. I did indeed panic a
    bit when the belt slipped with the car running.

    I think I should go to the casino now, since I surely was
    so lucky today. :)
     
    Elle, Jul 18, 2007
    #15
  16. Elle

    Tegger Guest

    $:


    Two thumbs up! Glad you got it going.

    The tensioner can be a bit of a puzzle. I did not mention it before because
    I forgot, but it is easy to get the tensioner and spring assembled
    incorrectly, in which case it will not zing up properly when asked to do
    so.

    I myself somehow got the tensioner and spring improperly assembled the
    first time I did my belt (had replaced the tensioner). When it did not
    respond correctly to my attempts at "zinging" it, I investigated further
    and discovered my mistake.

    My belt is not due to be replaced for a few years yet, and I did my wife's
    just last year, so it may be a while before I manage to get some photos,
    unless somebody has some to contribute.
     
    Tegger, Jul 18, 2007
    #16
  17. Elle

    Tegger Guest

    $:


    Two thumbs up! Glad you got it going.

    The tensioner can be a bit of a puzzle. I did not mention it before because
    I forgot, but it is easy to get the tensioner and spring assembled
    incorrectly, in which case it will not zing up properly when asked to do
    so.

    I myself somehow got the tensioner and spring improperly assembled the
    first time I did my belt (had replaced the tensioner). When it did not
    respond correctly to my attempts at "zinging" it, I investigated further
    and discovered my mistake.

    My belt is not due to be replaced for a few years yet, and I did my wife's
    just last year, so it may be a while before I manage to get some photos,
    unless somebody has some to contribute.
     
    Tegger, Jul 18, 2007
    #17
  18. Elle

    Elle Guest

    I checked the orientation of the hooks at the end of the
    spring on the old setup first, so I think I got those right.
    I wish I'd made other observations, though. I think I will
    go to my local "U-Pull-It" auto junkyard and see if I can
    find some old tensioners still installed.
    I wish I understood how the tensioner works well enough to
    write this experience up, with photos. I am holding onto the
    old tensioner and spring for awhile to see if I become
    "inspired."

    OTOH, my 91's design is so old, I am not sure it will be of
    much value for very long.
     
    Elle, Jul 18, 2007
    #18
  19. Elle

    Elle Guest

    I checked the orientation of the hooks at the end of the
    spring on the old setup first, so I think I got those right.
    I wish I'd made other observations, though. I think I will
    go to my local "U-Pull-It" auto junkyard and see if I can
    find some old tensioners still installed.
    I wish I understood how the tensioner works well enough to
    write this experience up, with photos. I am holding onto the
    old tensioner and spring for awhile to see if I become
    "inspired."

    OTOH, my 91's design is so old, I am not sure it will be of
    much value for very long.
     
    Elle, Jul 18, 2007
    #19
  20. Elle

    jim beam Guest

    it comes from the service manual.
    but that only tensions that one length of belt. you need to rotate to
    ensure all the lengths between all the rollers have adequate tension.
     
    jim beam, Jul 18, 2007
    #20
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