to change a Honda Accord 1988 model timing belt

what would a wiki backend do?

 

allow contributors to add content directly rather than have tegger do
all the work.

 

OK, first impressions upon reading your site:


CRANK PULLEY
------------
1) Nicely done up, clearly written. I /finally/ understand what that guy
was trying to say a long time ago when he was attempting to describe the
holder for pulleys with the ring of round holes!

2) I have very serious reservations about your assertion that the bolt
tightens over time due to heat cycling. This frankly makes no sense at all.
Consider that the crankshaft nose heats and cools identically with the
bolt. I would like to see some citations supporting that theory.

I have linked your pages to mine in spite of this, but that paragraph
really should be removed.

3) Neither does it make sense that the bolt tightens because of the way
it's turning. The pulley is keyed positively in place, and the bolt has far
less mass than the crankshaft. The crank cannot spin up faster than the
bolt for the simple reason of greater inertia. It is impossible for the
bolt to tighten as the engine spins unless it's been severely undertorqued
in the first place (as in finger-LOOSE), and even then it would tend to
vibrate out instead.

That crankshaft bolt is hard to undo for two reasons: 1) The well-known
phenomenon that it takes a lot more than tightening torque to break the
static friction between the surfaces of the bolt and its receptacle, and 2)
corrosion. This is why a blow from an air-hammer is almost 100% effective
even on the worst bolts. The blow breaks the rust seal.

I suppose it's possible for rust to form between the pulley and the
crankshaft nose (similarly to the way it does between brake rotor and hub),
which would have the effect of putting a tremendous amount of force on the
bolt as it pushes the pulley outwards.

4) Jamieson's and Curly's homemade pulley holder is for the pulley with a
hex, not the one with no hex and no lip.


OIL IN THE PLUG HOLES
---------------------
1) There is an even easier way of determining #1 cyl compression TDC if
you've already got the valve cover off: Just make sure the #1 cyl's valves
are closed as the timing marks are lined up. That way nothing has to get
stuck in the spark plug hole.

If the person doing the operation can not tell if the valves are closed by
that method, then he shouldn't be doing this kind of work anyway.


REMOVING THE CRANK BOLT, from
http://www.cadvision.com/blanchas/54pontiac/honda.html
---------------------

The page contains some good info, but also a couple of fairly poor things
that mark the author as somewhat inexperienced. Specifically these two:

1) "Use the starter motor to loosen the bolt once your wrench is secure
(strips flywheel teeth)"
This is utter nonsense. It's a method used all the time in non-Honda
vehicles and is quite effective indeed. The starter and ring gear are not
at risk. The method can NOT be used on most Hondas because the engine turns
the wrong way, and for no other reason.

2) "Use an air hammer _ probably damage something in the engine, drivetrain
and your ears with all that pounding"
Nonsense as well. You don't use the hammer to take the bolt off, you use it
to break the rust seal. And you don't do it repeatedly, but deliver only
one or two blows. This is also very effective.

 

Don't know what you mean by "'Wiki' back-end". Could you explain briefly?


I'd dig it up myself, but I'm a bit tired just now.

 

Ohhhh. Never mind my last reply.

I'll look into it.

 

in this instance, it /can/ tighten because of crank rotation direction.
the pulley /is/ keyed as you say, but it still has a small degree of
lash, and the pulley/bolt still have momentum. and crank rotation
velocity spikes with each cylinder combustion.

when i was messing about with my crx, i played with the bolt tightness a
little bit and found that i could have the bolt done to torque and easy
to undo again, [i forgot something and had to remove the pulley a couple
of times] yet one high speed test drive later, the bolt's one
super-tight sob again!

bottom line, sure, rust plays a part and the threads may even be treated
with some form of locker, but if you think about crank rotation and
tightening direction vs. pulley momentum, it /can/ progressively tighten
over time.

 

all.

To me, it does because (1) I am acquainted with industrial size bolts being
torqued using bolt heaters; and (2) no other explanation (not rust or your
other theory) seems reasonable.

I do agree I should qualify my statements at the site and say something
like, "My theory for the high torque after operation is... "

I wouldn't say that. I don't know their respective materials, for one thing.

Geometry plays a role, too.

Haven't seen any, beyond my knowledge of bolt heaters being used to torque
down bolts in industrial applications.

You don't have to link any of it. I won't be offended or anything.

It sounds like you're presuming some sort of rigid connection between bolt
and pulley. One can unscrew the bolt from the crankshaft, with both
crankshaft and pulley fixed (because of the key). This means one can screw
the crankshaft-keyed-to-pulley onto the bolt as well, so to speak.

The group (including you and me) discussed this last year, before I had
actually done a TB job. Back then I agreed with you that the key prevented
the crankshaft from rotating onto the bolt (so to speak). I feel I was
wrong.

The final word on the net seems to be it's unclear what the cause is, but
heat cycling and rust are not ruled out.

Or if it's heated such that it expands, as I described at the site.

It does heat gradually, and simultaneous to the crankshaft turning so as to
tighten the connection. It's not going to be terribly obvious.

Querying about what holds the bolt steady enough so that the crankshaft
screws onto the bolt is a fair question. I would say just inertia.

It shouldn't take much rotation at all, at high enough bolt temperatures, to
tighten that.

I suppose one could do a test: After removing and torquing the bolt to spec,
magic marker a line down a diameter of the bolt and pulley. Operate the
engine for a few months. Check whether the line breaks up.

I remain tentative about any rust theory here. It's not like much water can
get up in there. When I last removed the bolt from my Honda, it looked
pretty clean.

Yes, this is what I say: It's for what I call category (1) pulleys.

Maybe re-ordering the paragraphs could make things more clear.

If you are referring to the rocker arms not riding on the camshaft lobes,
and so indicating the intake valves are shut yada, the site mentions this.

Again, it's no problem if you decide not to link up these pages to your
site.

Everyone has their opinions. Some are quickly refuted. Other issues remain
controversial. I don't have a need to rehash the controversy. I think the
bigger question is: Do sites like yours, mine, and the Blanchas site help
people?

I used the Blanchas site a lot when I did my first TB job. Your own site
has obviously helped a lot of people as well. Maybe my site will be of some
use some day (for as long as I keep it up). Doesn't matter. I have a number
of other home-made sites bookmarked for Hondas, too, and have referred to
them a lot. I think all, while maybe not perfect, are overall very helpful.

(None of the manuals are perfect, either.)

 

http://wiki.org/wiki.cgi?WhatIsWiki

"Wiki is a piece of server software that allows users to freely create
and edit Web page content using any Web browser. Wiki supports
hyperlinks and has a simple text syntax for creating new pages and
crosslinks between internal pages on the fly.

"Wiki is unusual among group communication mechanisms in that it allows
the organization of contributions to be edited in addition to the
content itself.

"Like many simple concepts, "open editing" has some profound and subtle
effects on Wiki usage. Allowing everyday users to create and edit any
page in a Web site is exciting in that it encourages democratic use of
the Web and promotes content composition by nontechnical users."

 

or use nail polish, cuz youre a GIRRRRRRL!

j/k... wanted to toss some neanderthal sexism in there, that's totally
unwarranted.

i like just about every site ive run across. ive read yours and liked
it, teggers is obviously really good... and with the new TSBs, even more
betterer!

"helm- there is no substitute"

 

something about putting it up on wikipedia, somehow. or at least a copy
of it, so people can add to it. i dont know how that works, but wiki can
be a pretty interesting online encyclopedia, if you take it with a grain
of salt.

downloading all that proprietary honda technical knowledge must have
been a strain

i really hope you dont get hassled for it. been reading through some of
em, and its interesting stuff. i might do the "windshield trim fix" myself.

 

See my other reply to SoCalMike. The "biggest" and most popular example
of this is www.wikipedia.org, which has actually been giving Encylopedia
Britannica's website a run for its money, and creating a good bit of
media buzz in the process. Google "wikipedia vs. britannica" (without
the quotes) - and about all those "Britannica buys out Wikipedia"
articles, do note the date on them...

 

I installed a wiki backend once to see what it was about... that
particular one, it was possible to setup access rights so editing could
be limited to permitted people... my main thinking was, the wiki concept
is to allow those of any skill level, even the computer-illiterate, to
edit content, meaning it's typically dead-easy. Plus, most wikis have
extensive indexing and search capabilities.

 

In my opinion, some sexism is good. This is a great suggestion. The nail
polish brush size is just right. The polish may adhere just fine.

Plus, what else is just laying around to paint on an easy to read line
across the pulley and bolt?

Pink frost glitter should be a staple of every honda technician's toolbox.

IIRC, there is already a blue paint mark on my 91 Civic's pulley bolt, I
should at least check its orientation relative to the pulley's timing marks.
Then slap on the nail polish...

I agree, with the exception of maybe some of those forums which come up so
often when one is doing a search for info. Lotta junk in those. This forum
(rec.yada.honda) is much cleaner, and one can easily go to groups.google and
do a search of strictly it.

Those forums weren't nearly as prolific around 2000. Back then, I'd get a
lot more of the excellent homemade sites, like Blanchas's, when I googled.

I dunno about this wiki proposal, though. It sounds like any yahoo can go in
there and mess with things. I think a hman filter is needed, if only to
ensure something with which Tegger (and possibly others) doesn't agree
doesn't go up. It is his site, after all, as you know. He's done a lot of
work on it and I don't know if the wiki feature could have brought it as
far.

I remain convinced that Chilton's is a spot-on reproduction of much of
Helm.

 

As usual, great test; great anecdote for the archives.

 

Is this how Wikipedia works?

I always thought there was some person in charge of final editing, like the
first author. In other words, Wikipedia is not a free for all where anyone
can post anything to the main article.

I think the "free for alls" should be left for this newsgroup. Tegger can
pick and choose what meets with his approval.

Democratic use of the web happens by allowing people to create /their own/
web sites to respond to others, IMO, not by allowing people to monkey with
another person's site, so to speak.

Two cents.

 

myself.

As in replacing a windshield?

Please do.

 

anyone can post anything. try it yourself. you'd be surprised at how
the good stuff is persistent and the crap gets quickly fixed.

 

I reckon I should mosey over there. The occasional crap doesn't get fixed
here but instead goes on perpetuating. That is, there's no "final say" as
there seems to be at Wikipedia. So I don't get how Wikipedia can be superior
to Usenet, unless someone's doing some editing at Wiki.

OTOH, I rarely go to Wikipedia for technical questions. I use it mostly for
biographies or overviews of historical events (though questioning anything
that looks fishy, which I do think is not hard to find).

There are a few particular women who have landed a spot in history there and
who are routinely roasted (in a mean way) on other sites at the net and
certainly on newsgroups. One would think that kind of crap would easily get
through on Wikipedia, if what you say is true. But on the contrary, the
entries are clean, making reference to controversy but generally, without
more facts, withholding judgment.

 

anyone can edit a wiki, either well or badly. but the point is, and
it's an amazing phenomenon given its unregulated nature, that wiki's
usually turn out just fine.

that's exactly my point. the good stuff generally persists. check out
the editing histories on some controversial subjects.

 

nah- the TSB about the rubber gasket wrinkling. mines been like that
since day1, and slightly annoying. means pulling the gasket out,
trimming the inner lip off, then laying it down with silicone.