Toyota, Honda recalls for brake problems

http://consumerist.com/2010/10/honda-recalls-nearly-500k-cars-over-brake-problems.html

Short URL: http://con.st/10012332
give us a brake
Honda Recalls Nearly 500K Cars Over Brake Problems
By Chris Morran on October 22, 2010 3:19 PM 0 views

Remember yesterday when Toyota recalled 1.53 million cars over
concerns about leaking brake fluid? Apparently the problem is
contagious, with Honda issuing a recall of their own on 470,000 Acura
and Honda vehicles.

A rep for the car company told the Detroit News that the recall covers
some 2005-07 Acura RL and 2005-07 Honda Odyssey vehicles.

The issue in both the Toyota and Honda recalls involves a part
manufactured by the same company, identified as Advics.

Apparently, if customers use brake fluid other than the original type,
the seal on the master cylinder can fail, diminishing the car's
stopping power.

Explains a rep for the company to Consumer Reports:

“
If a manual brake bleed is performed, with full and rapid stroke
of the brake pedal, the seal can become twisted within its retention
groove. Once that has occurred, a twisted seal can leak a small amount
of brake fluid with each application of the pedal.
”

Honda will replace the brake master cylinder seal in all recalled
vehicles. If leaking occurred, it also will replace the brake booster.

The Honda rep says that drivers will know if a leak is happening
because it "will result in the brake fluid light illuminating before
there is any loss of brake system performance. Although one brake
circuit could gradually lose performance due to this cause, there
would be no effect on the other brake circuit."

If the warning light does come on, take your vehicle to the dealer for
repair ASAP.

Owners may contact Honda customer service at: 800-999-1009.

Honda follows Toyota with brake-related recall of Acura RL, Honda
Odyssey [Consumer Reports]

Honda recalls 470,000 vehicles for brake fluid leaks [Detroit News]
More About:

* give us a brake,
* recalls,
* honda,
* toyota,
* total recalls

From ConsumerReports.org:

* Toyota to recall Avalon, Highlander and Lexus GS, IS for brake
concerns
* Behind the wheel: Toyota Prius Plug-in - A viable green
technology that doesn't save money for now
* Free maintenance on new Scion and Toyota cars for two years


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what are they recalling for? sounds like things I've known for years,
and which ought to be in every maintenance manual:

1) always use original style brake fluid, unless you have a very old car
that predates DOT3 spec (and in that case find out what the modern
equivalent of the original fluid is before purchasing)

2) pressure bleeding is preferable to pump bleeding, because pump
bleeding can cause failure of MC seals (granted, the reason I've seen
this happen is due to the seals riding over portions of the bore that it
usually doesn't wipe, which if the car has been poorly maintained in the
past may have light corrosion which abrades the seal lip - not the
reason given here)

So Toyota and Honda are recalling cars because improper maintenance can
cause seals to fail? Sheesh.

nate

 

The leak is a very slow leak. The brake light will come on first.

Jeff

 

sorry nate, but this is bullshit. nothing personal because i know this
is a widely propagated myth, but it's fundamentally misguided for two
reasons:

i. if you disassemble the modern master cylinder, you'll find the bore
to be absolutely perfect inside, particularly on modern aluminum
cylinders. unless using urine for emergency brake fluid over extended
periods, normal brake fluids contain corrosion inhibitors that very
successfully prevent corrosion and maintain this condition. even in
junkyard vehicles left open to the elements which i've examined.

ii. the piston MUST fundamentally be allowed to travel the full length
of the bore and maintain pressure at all times. if for some reason
there might be a problem with full travel, you want to know about it -
not remain in ignorance.

now, there frequently is a coincidence for seal leakage onset happening
a couple of weeks after a pumped fluid change operation, but this is
because the fresh fluid is exposing prior damage the seal had
accumulated - it's nothing to do with the pumping action.

seal elastomer volume and mechanical properties are a function of the
fluid in which it resides. old contaminated brake fluids can mess with
the seal and let it expand too much and get too soft for several
reasons, one being excess moisture, another being problems with the seal
conditioners. this results in the elastomer, in extreme cases, to more
closely resemble half-sucked gummy bear than anything else. when new
fluid is flushed, its refreshed conditioners do their job in returning
the seal to a better state, but that can involve shrinkage from gummy
bear size, and thus the wear it sustained in gummy bear condition
becomes apparent because it no longer fits the cylinder bore the way it
used to. so it leaks!

so where does this lead? imagine you had one circuit out - the one
operated by the farthest piston. the first piston must then be able to
travel most of the length of the bore until the second piston bottoms
before it will give pressure. if the first circuit were to then fail
because it's "traveling in an unused section" of the cylinder, there
would be little point in having dual circuit braking.

bottom line - the brake cylinder must be able to travel the full length
of the bore without fear of failure. if it can't, you want to know
asap. pump bleeding is a good thing. misattribution of seal failure to
it is flat out wrong. and even if there were to be some problem exposed
by it [although if you ever look inside a cylinder bore, you'll see how
unlikely this is] - you *want to know*.

i expect it's a confluence between someone taking short cuts with the
brake fluid formulation, someone else taking short cuts on the seal
elastomer formulation, resulting in an especially bad care of seal gummy
bear syndrome.

and based on some stuff i've seen, i think this problem is /much/ more
widespread among other manufacturers. the fact that honda and toyota
have stepped up to the plate is a good thing. i doubt you'll find
domestics doing it - even though i guarantee you, they're not immune.

 

The "Honda rep" above is "Honda PR Manager Christina Ra", so taking
the notice with a grain of salt might be called for. The original
brake fluid is a DOT-3 type. Both Honda and Toyota say their brake
fluid includes lubricants that aftermarket brake fluids do not, but
they do not say the aftermarket fluids don't meet DOT-3 specs.

 

It looks like the Toyota fiasco has resulted in car manufactures being a bit
quicker on the trigger
MLD