Toyota Reliability Slips behind Honda

Expressing an opinion does not make someone a troll. Calling someone a liar
because he does not agree with you is not a fair tactic. Point out one lie I
have told. You ignore facts at your own peril. Chanting the "Toyotas are
great" mantra doesn't make it a fact.

Define "rare lemon." Why is it wrong for me point out that not all surveys
are as flattering to Toyota as the Consumer Reports survey [used to be]? I
don't trust the CR's survey any more today than I did last year, or ten
years ago. It is not a well constructed survey.

Regards,

Ed White

 

Ed, I'd have to disagree with you at least wrt the Corolla which is
said to be the best Toyota wrt reliability or so I've read before.
I've got one old Corolla and 2 newer ones and they are reliable. Of
course I can't speak about the other Toyotas tho. Personally I prefer
Honda Accord because of comfort but it's not fair to compare the two.
Both are very reliable tho I think the Corolla is cheaper to maintain.

And as far as the CU, I tend to agree with you. People who fill out
the survey do so if they want to (therefore not too scientific) and
some who do so are not too bright when it comes to cars. What I've
read about CU in the past many times is that their reporting is biased
in favor of their advertisers no matter what they claim. I've read
this MANY times in other newsgroups and my concensus is, is that those
who know cars don't use CU for their basis. That said in my own
experience, I've found CU to fairly accurate (not always tho) but I
don't rely on them as my only source of info (just to be safe) before
I fork over serious money on a car/truck.

 

I've never said Corollas are unreliable. I'd agree that they are among the
most reliable cars you can buy, but they are not alone at the top. The
current Corolla is a "proven" (i.e. old) design by modern standards. And
Corollas tend to be basic vehicles (not to many electric/electronic
options). Both of these contribute to the reliability. Also, the type of
person that buys a Corolla is not likely to abuse it (but the they might not
maintain them perfectly either). BTW my Sister has an 11 year old Civic. In
the 11 years she has owned it, the only repairs were to replace the muffler
and the spark plug wires. And the muffler was her fault for backing it into
a curb . You couldn't really get a more reliable vehicle, though I
wouldn't be caught dead driving the car (faded paint, faded interior, paint
coming off the bumpers and wheel covers, fogged headlights, etc).

I am not sure what you mean by "advertising." Consumer Reports doesn't sell
advertising. The only advertising in the magazines or on the web site is for
their other products. Of course they do have monetary pressures. They have
to make sure the magazine appeals to the subscribers. They don't provide any
details on how many people respond for each brand of vehicle, but I believe
that they have a very large number of subscribers who are Toyota owners. If
you go look at Consumer Comments for various vehicles on there web site,
there are always more comments for Toyota vehicles than for most others.
For instance:

Here are the number of Consumer Reviews for various 2007 Toyotas:

4Runner (21)
Avalon (27)
Camry (195)
Camry Hybrid (22)
Camry Solara (19)
Corolla (15)
FJ Cruiser (60)
Highlander (7)
Highlander Hybrid (7)
Land Cruiser (0)
Matrix (7)
Prius (46)
RAV4 (41)
Sequoia (3)
Sienna (8)
Tacoma (21)
Tundra (53)
Yaris (46)

A total of 598 people.

Here is a similar list for Ford Models:

By model:
Crown Victoria (2)
Econoline (2)
Edge (32)
Escape (23)
Escape Hybrid (12)
Expedition (15)
Explorer (5)
Explorer Sport Trac (14)
F-150 (11)
F-250 (3)
F-350 (3)
Five Hundred (11)
Focus (13)
Freestar (0)
Freestyle (16)
Fusion (15)
Mustang (11)
Ranger (4)

Only 192

Over 3 times as many people responded about 2007 Toyota models as for 2007
Ford models. Now some of this may have been because Toyota owners are more
passionate than Ford owners, but I think a simpler explanation is that many
more CR readers are Toyota owners than are Ford owners. Therefore when
making editorial decisions, I suspect CR is less likely to offend Toyota
owners than Ford owners. Plus it is clear over the years that CR has a
preference for Toyota design decisions. CR has always favored simple, basic,
proven, over exciting, interesting, high performance. I am not saying they
are deliberately biased (they don't sit around in meetings saying " Let pump
up Toyota") but they do have preferences that fit in with the Toyota type of
cars (or maybe Toyota designs cars that suit the CR preferences). It is a
chicken / egg thing - Do more Toyota owners buy CR because it prefers
Toyotas, or do CR readers prefer Toyotas because they read (and trust) CR.
Either way it is my opinion that CR's readership has a pro-Toyota bias. And
this may influence the pro-Toyota bias of CR. This is all theory / opinion.
It is not provable, at least by me.

Ed

 

What I've read about CU in the past many times is that their reporting is

I thought Consumer Reports didn't have advertising except for its own stuff.

 

Ok but didn't you say Toyota of which Corolla is one of them? And yes
I own a Honda Accord and love it. Everything else of which you said
I either agree or let me say I won't disagree too much.

One thing I said which I have to correct is I used CU when I meant CR.
But I think you already knew that.

 

I wouldn't and I've owned both. I'm not saying the 22RE is bad just I
wouldn't bet against the Honda engines either.

 

I have read similar comments many times in newsgroups as well and it
only convinces me that there are a lot of people who like to bash CR,
but who don't actually know much about it. As even White points out;
CR doesn't accept outside advertising. This is probably the most
fundamental principle of the organization and anyone who doesn't know
this can hardly be considered an authority CR.

The subscribers want unbiased reviews of products to allow them to
make informed buying decisions. What appeals to them is objectivity
and testing skill.

CR subscribers tend to make rational, well researched buying
decisions. In the past, Toyota has ranked at the top of reliability
so it isn't surprising that more CR subscribers prefer them. As for
CR's preferences, well, read on.

Of course the survey results are not an editorial decision but rather
the experiences reported by the owners. In this case, the owners are
reporting that Toyota reliability has dropped for at least some models
and Ford has improved. CR has chosen to highlight this fact in a
special article. If their motivation is to stroke Toyota loyalists,
they must be stupid. If the goal is unbiased reporting, they are
doing their job.

This is another myth promulgated by CR bashers. CR favors cars that
deliver what they are supposed to deliver. Simple and basic may be
desirable for economy cars. For sports and luxury cars, low
performance and blandness is a ticket to the bottom of the rankings.

Really? Read on.

Then why did they trash the V6 Camry, the V8 Tundra and the AWD Lexus
GS?

Well, let's see if objective facts bear you out. Of the 21 categories
of vehicles tested by CR, here are the manufacturers of the top rated
models and the number of categories they won:

Honda 5
Toyota 4
Nissan 3
Porsche 2
GM 2
Mazda 2
Mini 1
Mercedes 1
VW 1

Hardly an overwhelming bias for Toyota. And considering the narrow
range of cars manufactured by Porsche, having two models at the top of
their respective categories is pretty impressive. Does Porsche make
the simple, basic, proven, unexciting, uninteresting, low performance
vehicles that you claim CR prefers?

If CR is biased toward Toyotas (because they prefer basic to
interesting or for whatever reason), how do you explain these facts:

Among Sports/Sporty cars, Scion tC ranks ninth out of ten, beating
only Cobalt.

Among Performance/Luxury Sports Cars, Lexus SC430 ranks eighth out of
ten.

Among Budget Cars in both AT and MT categories, Yaris ranks sixth out
of seven, beaten by a Kia, a Hyundai and a Ford.

Among Family Sedans, Camry ranks only fifth out of twenty.

Note that all of the above rankings are based only on CR testing. They
do not take reliability into account.