Toyota's troubles Honda's fortune?

Really ... Where are wouldbe Toyota buyers turning now first? Wouldn't
it be Honda? I wonder if there are any indication of this yet.

 

As a matter of fact, we just took delivery of a Honda Pilot Touring,
after test-driving the Toyota Venza. My wife absolutely hated the fly-
by-wire steering. It's like a remote-controlled vehicle. It goes
where you point it but there is no feedback. We also looked at the
new GMC Acadia, bit too Tonka-toy for me. We have twin Jeep Grand
Cherokee Laredos, with 140K miles so need reliability for long road
trips. The Honda seemed a generation ahead of the others, and the new
Jeeps are mere shadows of the old "real" Jeeps. And the Consumer's
Report didn't help either. Remarkably, we had few problems with the
Jeeps, and I used to drive from Dallas to Sacramento for the Jazz
Jubilee, each year. The Honda is bigger, quieter, more fuel-
efficient, more automated, more seats (can snug 8 people into one.)
Just more of what we wanted and less of what we didn't want.

 

I still have respect for Toyota, however, a once highly regarded
reputation will now take some time to recover from this. I've been
trying to find out if Toyota utilizes Drive-by-Wire technology that
Honda uses as their throttle system. Wondering if this design is to
fault or not. Any thoughts?

Chris
www.makingcarsense.com
http://www.makingcarsense.com/post/toyota-recall-toyota-temporarily-suspending-sales-of-selected-toyota-vehicles-january-2010/1079.aspx

 

We still have our 03 Pilot, the 1st year they came out. Still drives like
new and does not break. Although AWD it gets around 22 on the road.

 

You're a bit out of the loop on this. Funny that, given your advertised
website.

ALL automakers now use throttle-by-wire. It's an aftershock of federal
emissions-control regulations. In case anybody's wondering, steering is
still steel-to-steel, as it has been since forever.

There were two problems with the affected Toyotas:
1) aftermarket floor mats (the cop that died was driving a loaner that had
aftermarket mats which had bunched up and kept the pedal down), and
2) poor-quality pedal/sensor assemblies from a Toyota supplier.

The sensor problem has to do with gas pedal assemblies supplied to Toyota
by a Canadian branch of a US company called CTS. This only affected
American and Canadian-built vehicles. Japanese-built cars have Denso-
supplied pedal assemblies. These are not subject to the sensor recall.

Note that Toyota, like Honda and all other foreign-owned makes, is forced
to buy a certain percentage of their parts from NAFTA-eligible suppliers in
order for their NA-assembled vehicles to be exempt from the various import
tariffs. Just about all of Toyota's recent recalls have involved NA
suppliers. Doesn't say much for us, that's for sure.

 

I have no cogent thoughts. I am old. Seventy-one years old. The
first car that I drove was a 1938 Packard 120. The second car was a
1948 Buick Roadmaster. The third was a BMW Isetta, and the fourth was
a 1959 XK-140 Jaguar, which I raced at Laguna Seca. Along the way
there was a Jeep Wagoneer, and a 1962 E-Type Jaguar, toured around
Europe, followed by a 455 Pontiac Bonneville, and, going back to
Europe, a VW Dasher, and some others.

My only real thoughts are that (and I flew airplanes) that you really
can feel things by the "seat of your pants" and that people who do not
have that ability do not have "the right stuff."

Fly-by-wire is a neutral technology. You get it or you do not get
it. The key thing is,does it work? As an aside and an insight into
design, there was the case of an American aircraft which had the
instructions for blowing the canopy written on the canopy. There were
five lines and, if you followed the instructions, you blew the canopy
at the third line, and then never knew what the following lines had to
say. Better than a German WWII aircraft that had the instructions to
pull, with both hands, the latches, and when the pilot did that, the
explosive bolts went off so fast that both of the pilot's hands were
pulled off. More than anyone wants to know.

I do not know what Honda uses as their throttle system, but my
experience leads me to always have another "out." All cars can have
"surges" and it is a poor driver that does no know how to stop a car.
Now, saying that, I realize that my daughter-in-law, carrying our
grand-kids, is pretty unknowing about how to do most anything in a
car.

Incidentally, just yesterday I had to take the mandatory California 70
years old driver's test. The eyesight was 20/20 and I got 100% on the
test, so I am thinking about this Ferrari......

 

Well, the problem appears to be in an American made part.

I've always been "afraid" of my wife's Camry. When I punch it, it
almost feels like a turbine powered aircraft. Sort of thinks and
starts to spool up. Real mushy.

Her's is "one of the ones", but she has long known how to get out of
that kind of mess. Toyota says to stick the car in neutral and pound
the brake with both feet. Once it's in neutral it's not going to go
any faster. If you're in a turn a little too hot, that puppy is going
to step around on you in a FWD car.
--

- dillon I am not invalid

I love my country, It's my government I fear.

Hey, turnabout's fair play.

 

22 seems good to me. The Jeeps got 17, when we were in Texas. Now
retired, and in California, they only get 15, because the gas is
diluted with corn alchohol. The politicos love it because they get
state tax on every gallon, so the more gallons that you burn, the more
taxes that they get. Few people understand this.

 

I own both Honda and Toyota vehicles.
Toyota owners tend to want comfort while Honda owners tend to want
responsiveness.
While it might seem that potential Camry buyers would go for an
Accord, I'd guess the numbers will be less than you think. The Accord
will be too noisy and rough riding for many Camry buyers.

The Toyota floor mat issue has been around for a while. That didn't
stop me from buying a new Sienna after putting 250K nearly trouble-
free miles on a 1998 Sienna.

YMMV

 

Interesting comparison. I always wondered if newer Toyotas were quieter
than Hondas because I sure find my '94 Accord pretty noisy. But then, I
had an '84 Corolla before and that was also noisy as hell. True though
that it was not in the same class as Camry or Accord. But how are
Toyotas more comfortable besides the road noise?

 

Toyotas tend to have softer and quieter ride. Hondas are more sporty and
better handing. Road noise has a lot to do with the kind of tires you put on
too.

Nissan Altima used to be a good car. Not sure if it has gotten better or
worst in terms of quality.

 

Nissan overall has seen its quality slip significantly over the years, to
the point where it is probably the least reliable Japanese car maker. I
wonder if we can blame that on the fact that they are owned by Renault?

 

That can't be right. Surely the steering is a mechanical linkage.
Toyota steering can be pretty numb. Maybe you mean electric power
steering. Honda has that too. I'm not a big fan of it but I would
expect the Honda system to have more road feel than Toyota.

 

Maybe they should go back to the Datsun name. Any idea how Subarus rank
in the quality category?

 

The German cars seem to have a good road feel.

 

Generally, previous generation Honda cars were sportier than their
current iterations. The mainstream products from both these companies
are none too sporty.

Yup, The Tire Rack asks users to provide input re. tire noise. That
said, Toyota/Lexus is known for insulation from road noise.

It's hard to find a poor car in the family sedan class. Competition
works.
But if you look at last year's sales, Subaru and Hyundai are the
standouts with increases while the rest of the industry took it on the
chin.
Car shoppers should consider how they will use the car (city? highway?
lots of night driving? more than 2 kids?), where they live (snow
country? mountains?) and buy something that meets their own needs
(e.g., minivan).

 

My parents will soon replace their 1994 Toyota Camry after almost 14
years of excellent service. This car has not received a lot of care and
has held up amazingly well in spite of that.

The Toyota recalls and just a desire to see the other offerings may have
them looking at the Honda Accord.
Their two main criteria are reliability and overall comfort. Road noise
is definitely a factor. It also needs to have 4 doors, but will rarely
have someone in the back seat anymore. The least important thing for
them is how sporty it is.

They are also looking for something as close to their current Camry as
possible as far as price, (adjusted for 2010 of course), gas mileage,
and trunk capacity.

Looking at the Accord is a given, but I was wondering what other cars in
this general criteria range they should be checking out. I have been
researching it some and nothing but the Accord is really standing out so
far.

Thanks!

Pat

 

I usually refrain from commenting on these blanket indictments, but since I
have some first hand experience with both recent Hondas and Nissans, I would
really like to know where you are getting this tidbit. It is simply not
true, especially with regard to the cars. Recent Nissans, with the sole
exception of the large trucks, are just as reliable as any Toyota or Honda
and more "sporty" than either one of them.

I have owned '96, '00 and '06 Hondas (and Odyssey, TL & CRV) and '96, '97,
'02, '08 & '09 Nissans (G20, I30, Pathfinder, Altima & G37). Currently in
my garage is an '06 Honda CRV and an '09 G37S. My daughter has an '08
Altima which has been flawless up to now.

The Nissan are significantly quieter than than Hondas across the board, ride
better and handle better. They haven't used timing belts since the early
'90s.

I do my own routine maintenance. The Hondas are more difficult to work on
(whose bright idea was it to put the oil filter above the exhaust on the
back of the engine anyway?).

The only major catastrophe I have experienced with a car since '96 has been
when the AC compressor on the '06 Honda CRV completely self destructed last
summer without warning at only 40,000 miles & one month past the 3 year
warranty period. The entire AC system had to be replaced at a cost of
nearly $2000 and American Honda would not even talk to me about it.

 

Good God, an 08 ANYTHING would be flawless.

I hope that's not your criterion for "it's a good car"...

 

Wow.

You were dealing with the wrong dealership.

Did you CALL American Honda and open a log on this yourself? Or did you
just talk to the dealership service manager and take his word for
everything?

Quick story: way back when, mid-80s, I owned a 79 Civic. Loved that
car. Gas tank had a bad design, the straps held moisture and the tank
rusted. Went to my dealer. "Yeah, that shouldn't have happened. Honda
has offered to buy the tank, if you'll pay labor." Done.

Based on that, a year later my GF bought a 79 Civic. Shortly
thereafter, rusting gas tank. "No problem," I said. She took it to the
dealer nearest her--different from mine--and explained it all. This was
on a Friday.

Friday afternoon at 4:00 she called me, very upset, and said that the
dealer apparently forgot about Honda buying the tank, and wanted her to
pay the full bill. When she reminded them about the campaign, they said
"Oh, well, you can leave the car here if you like, and we'll talk to the
zone rep when he comes by." "Bullshit," sez I. I called American
Honda, the zone office directly, and explained the situation to the guy
who answered. "Hang on," he said.

Ten minutes later he comes back. "Go pick up your car. You'll pay
labor only."

Remember, this was at 4:15 on a Friday afternoon.

We go into the dealership to pick up the car, and the service manager is
at the desk. She sees us and says, "Went over our heads, did you?" You
bet your ass we did, sweetie. **** you and your incompetence.

25 years later I still give my dealership all of my Honda business, and
they still treat people the same way--with respect. I've had several
repairs taken care of under a goodwill policy, repairs that technically
weren't covered by warranty but which a reasonable person would say,
"Oh, that shouldn't have happened." And I've never waited to get an
answer--the service manager makes the decision on the spot.

One time, I took it in at 7pm, and the service writer called the service
manager at home to get an answer to my request for goodwill
consideration. He granted it, too. Of course, he knows me, and I'm a
regular customer. That helps.

It also helps to know that this isn't coming out of the dealership's
pocket. American Honda gives the dealership discretionary funds to take
care of gray area crap like this.

One month out of warranty? American Honda, had you called them
directly, wouldn't have hesitated to fix the entire thing. Shoot, I had
an idle air control valve go out 9 months--but only 3K miles--out of
warranty. $300 repair, and the service manager didn't hesitate to take
care of it for me, no charge.

You could have worked the system better, had you come here and asked.