update on emergency brake warning light

Wento to go to mechanics this morning, car wouldn't start, like the way a
dead battery sounds. I kept trying, it finally started Plus that brake
warning light was no longer on!!!
Took it to mechanic anyway---so far he's thinking alternator. So I left the
car there, and we'll see what happens tomorrow. I'll let you all know
loner

 

BTW, in general, are alternators really expensive? I mean the part
itself--labor is always expensive!
loner

 

-----------------------------------------

Alternators are expensive, but nobody replaces the whole alternator,
just the 'brushes'. I expect your mechanic will suggest a little
Vaseline (for your battery terminals too).

'Curly'

 

You can get a price on the alternator (possibly rebuilt) at
places like www.slhonda.com and www.hondaautomotiveparts.com
.. Like Curly said, if if the source of the problem is the
alternator, most likely it's just the brushes being too old
and worn.

Here's some info on the subject:
http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id13.html

How old are your alternator and battery, anyway?

If the brushes have never been replaced, the probability is
good it is they.

 

Thanks Curly, that's good to know
loner

 

Hi again Elle. thenks for the links. The battery is about 1 1/2 yrs old,
the alternator has brobably never been replaced. I looked through my old
invoices & couldn't find anyting, but as I said, there's only 62,000 miles
on it, so probably the brushes haven't been replaced
I'll call them tomorrow am and ask about all this. If they do say I need a
new Alternator, do you think that's a rip off? Should I ask for the brushes
to be replaced first, and see how it goes, then get an alternator if the new
brushes don't fix the problem?
Thanks again everybody--probably a new update tomorrow
loner

 

Done any jumpstarts on it? My site talks about how this will
significantly reduce a battery's life.

But it's more likely the alternator's brushes can no longer
keep the battery charged.

No, not necessarily. ISTM the labor it takes to do just the
brushes can approach the total cost of replacing the whole
alternator.

Other parts go bad on alternators, just not as often.

ISTM a car kept 20 years should need at least one alternator
replacement in the course of those 20 years.

If one is a do-it-yourselfer and has the time, then doing
just the brushes makes sense. This is not so for someone who
doesn't work much on cars and wants a repair that will (1)
last; (2) not lead to throwing good money after bad.

This is my rough impression, based on only one personal
alternator experience, a little exploration on brushes, and
a lot of reading. I am really not sure how often independent
shops are willing to do 'just the brushes.' Look for others'
thoughts on this. Tegger, Socalmike, Michael Pardee, JT,
Curly (among other regulars)?

 

Why? What did he do to arrive at this diagnosis?

 

Hi Tegger--the only thing I know so far is that there is nothing wrong with
the brake system (fluid, switch, wiring etc). When i tried to start it this
morning, it wouldn't--it felt & sounded like a dead battery, even though my
battery is 1 1/2 yrs old. After about the 7th try, it started.
Coincidently or not, my battery died last week, but I had left the lights on
for about 20 minutes & even then I didn't think the battery would run down
after such a short period. I got a jump & it was fine until this past
weekend-that's when the brake warning light came on,

What are other symptoms of a bad alternator? It hasn't been put in yet, so I
can call him first thing in the morning if I have other options. Thanks
again so much for your interest
loner

 

Under or overcharging, mostly.
http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/carfaq5.htm#voltage

Your guy ought to know how to test the battery and charging system. It's
SOP for any good garage.

How did you check the brake light circuit? Did you try unplugging the
wiring at the master cylinder cap?

 

Personally, I've generally opted for a rebuilt alternator (with a decent
warranty) as bearings, diodes etc. become a factor after a significant
period of time. Besides, I tend to be lazy at times...

JT

 

To be honest, I'm very intiminated because of my lack of car knowledge, so I
didn't do anything myself. The emerg.brake light warning was the initial
problem, but today the brake warning light did not go on. Instead, I just
couldn't get the engine to turn over-sounded like a dead battery, but I knew
that couldn't be it-it's new
I don't know if the brake switch was checked--it seems that because it took
7 tries to get it started, the brake warning light may have just been a
symptom of something else, so they turned their attention to the starting
problem. I'm sure they'll check the things you mentioned--those things
weren't checked today because they ran out of time, so I left the car there
to be worked on tomorrow.
I am making a list of all things you all have mentioned so I can
specifically ask them about each one. I do trust them, even though I just
recently moved up here in the Sierras,but they seem up front & reasonable
Next update tomorrow! Thanks!
loner

 

I tried brushes once on my POV; lasted 6 months,
Just replace the alt (If needed)


--
Stephen W. Hansen
ASE Certified Master Automobile Technician
ASE Automobile Advanced Engine Performance
ASE Undercar Specialist

http://autorepair.about.com/cs/troubleshooting/l/bl_obd_main.htm
http://www.troublecodes.net/technical/
http://www.familycar.com/Alignment.htm

 

How do you figure? Labor to re&re the alternator either is the same
either way... new brushes are about $5 and should take about 15 minutes
to swap in... and on some cars, a nimble mechanic could change the
brushes without needing to fully remove the alternator (like my '87
Accord where actually removing the thing from the car requires a degree
in acrobatics).

Going again from my '87, the voltage regulator module has to come out to
replace the brushes, and removing the diode pack takes three nuts, four
bolts, and 30 seconds more. Total time to actually replace everything
but the windings shouldn't exceed 30 minutes. What's the cost of new
regulator, brushes and diodes, vs. a complete new alternator? It's
GOTTA be more than the value half an hour's labor.

And again, with the '87 Accord, all this CAN be done without actually
removing the alt from the car.

 

I was thinking (1) the dealership for one will charge the
book rate, which may assume the alternator has to be pulled
off to replace the brushes; and (2) from reading here, not
all brushes can be replaced with the alternator in place.

I agree this will vary from model to model and maybe one
year to another year.

Hence I wrote "can approach... " Also, it's only an
impression based on not a whole lot of data. We don't see
too many reports here of folks who just replace the brushes
and then six months later see, say, an alternator bearing
failure.

Then also if it's /not/ the brushes that are bad, the
technician faces a comeback, and the customer faces an
inconvenience and possibly more money spent than just
slapping a remanufactured alternator in place.

The brush assemblies go for about $19 (not counting
shipping) at places like slhonda.com .

 

I replaced my brushes too. I even did it by unsoldering the old ones from
the holder and soldering in new ones from a local rebuilders ($5). At the
time I didn't know you could just buy a whole new brush holder from the
dealer.

My soldering skills aren't great, but the new brushes lasted three years,
and would surely have gone a lot longer, except the stator finally rusted
to the commutator and locked the alternator up. 14 years of Canadian
winters will do that...

Ain't nothin' wrong with replacing the brushes on an ND alternator. Their
bearings last nearly forever if the belt is properly tightened, and the
electrics last similarly if the alt has not been abused.

 

Even so - the labor to take out one alternator and put in a new one is
exactly the same as the labor to remove the alt and then put it back in
with new brushes... so the only difference there is the cost of the
brushes themselves and the labor to install them.

If you get JUST the bare brushes and solder them into the holder
yourself (easy enough for me), it's $5 plus about 15-20 minutes' labor
(in addition to the re&re); if you get the complete brushes with holder,
it's $20 plus 5-10 minutes to swap them into the alt.

Either way, you're talking re&re labor plus maybe $40, vs. re&re labor
plus the cost of a new alt (I've been quoted from $180 for a reman to
$350 for a factory new ND alt for my '87 Accord).

Slight difference there

If brushes are all that are bad, replacing them SHOULD be FAR cheaper
than replacing the whole alt, regardless of year and model. (I wouldn't
be surprised if there were exceptions with some British or Italian cars,
who knows what kinds of strange things those bastards put in their
vehicles).

 

Bah... takes me about 10 minutes to swap the raw brushes into an
existing holder.

Bring it out to Vancouver... I think we had maybe 10 days that actually
got below freezing this past winter

Yeah, like mine was with the hood-prop rod flopping over against the
positive battery post... that was nasty. Burnt one of the brushes to a
little carbonized crisp!

 

If it is the brushes that are the problem, and assuming the
consumer has told the technician to perform no diagnosis but
instead just replace the brushes.

We're not talking about someone do-it-yourselfing here. The
consumer has to go find a technician who will do exactly as
you describe.

Sure. It seems not a bad gamble for a consumer to just order
the shop to replace the brushes, even if the consumer is not
100% sure it is the brushes.

I am still not sure this is the most reliable route to go
with an old alternator, though. The bearings could go soon.
The consumer gets to make another trip. S/he does not
necessarily know what's wrong. S/he asks the shop to
diagnose it. The shop techs start rolling their eyes: Coulda
saved you money and time if we'd just slapped a new
alternator in the first time.

IOW, I still can't find reason to fault a shop for slapping
a whole new alternator in place in an older car with the
original alternator.

I hope you're not overlooking the difference in economic
outlooks on this matter for the do-it-yourselfer vs. the
guy/gal that just wants a reliable ride at a reasonable
cost.

At the next sign of trouble with my 91 Civic's (second)
alternator, I am going to do a little of my own diagnosis
and most likely end up just replacing the brushes and the
bearings. But in hindsight, I don't think I was messed over
when several years ago the dealer installed a whole new
alternator. Back then, I did not have the time to be messing
with my car.

 

Right on the money, Elle. A shop that replaces only the brushes is risking
having to hassle over who pays for a whole alternator when the inevitable
callback happens (not on every one, but enough to hurt). Shops don't like to
replace subassemblies when they can have a vendor assume the risks on full
assemblies.

Mike