Volkswagon unveils car that gets 282 miles to the gallon.

bill wrote:

i must if i waste time responding to you! b-bye!

 

bill wrote:

on second thoughts, you /do/ deserve a response.

wrong. and i've never been a union member of any sort. no unions in my
company either.

so what did /management/ do to bring it in here? it's not like the
legal tools don't exist. it happened in europe despite massive union
protection laws and national strikes. and guess what, now europe is
highly automated and highly productive. germany at any rate. it has
unemployment problems, but so will we if we keep exporting jobs to china.

wrong. unibody was citroen, france. the germans were into crash
deformation zones in the 40's. if by "computers", you mean fuel
injection, injection was used in germany in the 30's. electronic fuel
injection was usa, but that was imposed on manufacturers, kicking and
screaming, by californias emissions laws. the assembly line, was ford,
us. gps is /utterly/ irrelevant when your crankshafts are cast, your
body pressings are mis-shapen and your transmissions barely last 100k.

sure we can. if management don't have the balls to get on with it,
that's not a union problem. shut the industry down. fire the lot of
them. and start again. happens in other union industries.

like 35 hours weeks??? that's a great cause!

read your own cites.

so why did you cite it? cite something that supports your argument, not
contradicts it!!!

eh? european engineering grads being paid $40k is bullshit? home many
engineering grads here are going to work for that?

in europe, grads consistently get paid less than union workers.

if you're trying to contradict what i said, you're making no sense.

really? is that why bmw, mercedes and vw are all over american roads?

er, peugeot, citroen, nissan...

and that's another point, why ship AMERICAN jobs overseas to china,
along with our technology, when we can AUTOMATE and keep our technology
at home. bleating about unions is totally missing the point.

as they should here. if they can't make it, they should pack up and go
home.

you've never been to europe!!!

 

bill wrote:

on second thoughts, you /do/ deserve a response.

wrong. and i've never been a union member of any sort. no unions in my
company either.

so what did /management/ do to bring it in here? it's not like the
legal tools don't exist. it happened in europe despite massive union
protection laws and national strikes. and guess what, now europe is
highly automated and highly productive. germany at any rate. it has
unemployment problems, but so will we if we keep exporting jobs to china.

wrong. unibody was citroen, france. the germans were into crash
deformation zones in the 40's. if by "computers", you mean fuel
injection, injection was used in germany in the 30's. electronic fuel
injection was usa, but that was imposed on manufacturers, kicking and
screaming, by californias emissions laws. the assembly line, was ford,
us. gps is /utterly/ irrelevant when your crankshafts are cast, your
body pressings are mis-shapen and your transmissions barely last 100k.

sure we can. if management don't have the balls to get on with it,
that's not a union problem. shut the industry down. fire the lot of
them. and start again. happens in other union industries.

like 35 hours weeks??? that's a great cause!

read your own cites.

so why did you cite it? cite something that supports your argument, not
contradicts it!!!

eh? european engineering grads being paid $40k is bullshit? home many
engineering grads here are going to work for that?

in europe, grads consistently get paid less than union workers.

if you're trying to contradict what i said, you're making no sense.

really? is that why bmw, mercedes and vw are all over american roads?

er, peugeot, citroen, nissan...

and that's another point, why ship AMERICAN jobs overseas to china,
along with our technology, when we can AUTOMATE and keep our technology
at home. bleating about unions is totally missing the point.

as they should here. if they can't make it, they should pack up and go
home.

you've never been to europe!!!

 

I think that it is YOU who misunderstands here.

Consider the fact that Honda Civics which once were small now weight at
least a 1,000 lbs more than their original models.

More weight demands more HP to move 'em around.

All this (for the most part) in the name of safety when a good dose of
common sense would suffice. Add to this, consumers demands for more
room and performance.

There is no guv'ment regulation stronger than that which exists in the
US. Hell, I would prefer to have a EN1 engine in my '82 & '83 Civics
rather than the EJ1 but such was not permitted.

Oh, when you mention heavier and "stiff" cars, you're venturing into
vintage tin, not today's SUVs. I will be the first to concede the
rationale behind owning SUVs is practically no rationale at all...

JT

 

I think that it is YOU who misunderstands here.

Consider the fact that Honda Civics which once were small now weight at
least a 1,000 lbs more than their original models.

More weight demands more HP to move 'em around.

All this (for the most part) in the name of safety when a good dose of
common sense would suffice. Add to this, consumers demands for more
room and performance.

There is no guv'ment regulation stronger than that which exists in the
US. Hell, I would prefer to have a EN1 engine in my '82 & '83 Civics
rather than the EJ1 but such was not permitted.

Oh, when you mention heavier and "stiff" cars, you're venturing into
vintage tin, not today's SUVs. I will be the first to concede the
rationale behind owning SUVs is practically no rationale at all...

JT

 

in partnership with chrysler
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monocoque

I stand corrected.

Well, still happened

but that was imposed on manufacturers, kicking and screaming, by
californias emissions laws.

no, I meant the ECU. again, you'll just say it was installed to
deal with epa laws, but it still happened here. As did the catalytic
converter.

gps is /utterly/ irrelevant when your crankshafts are cast, your

here's an interesting bit. anyway, until pretty recently, the us auto
industry was at least fully competitive with anyone's best. What
changed? I'll tell you, the technology changed and the companies were
prevented from implementing it due to UCS interference (union cock
suckers)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automotive_superlatives#Firsts

If management doesn't have the balls to face down a strike, lose
billions of dollars and precious market share, and then have the
federal government step in and decide what to do based on what will
win votes you mean? look, this isn't complicated, the unions are
strangling the industry, they aren't the only problem, but they are
the biggest.

It does support what I said. they had a dispute about freaking
bar codes. I was wrong about strike vs lockout, but it really amounts
to the same thing, the unions refused to use the new tech, and the
company said you have to. the clerical staff is and was nonunion, so
the union claims that they were trying to exclude the clerical staff
from the union were bullshit. It's a little hard to find decent
objective analysis of political bullshit that happened 10 years ago,
so I'm going to have to ask you to look past the spin they put on that
one.

All of them. starting salary for ALL branches of engineering is
40k plus or minus 5 depending on location and specialty.

As they do here.

Okay, thing 1 was that I was talking about union pay scales
compared to professional pay scales, and pointing out that they are
consistently higher.

Lag. unions work great as long as nothing changes. you'll note
that for the past 20 years, bmw and mercedes have been declining HARD
in quality, reliability and overall desireability. besides, luxury
cars are a bit of a special case.

Nissan is japanese and the rest of them combined do not amount to
the sales on the toyota prius. France effectively has no auto
industry.

the reason we don't do that is the unions will not allow it.
very simple, and very clearly true. Automation eliminates jobs.

Okay, but we're trying to answer the "why can't they make it?"
question, and the answer is very simple. Unions. 100% of all union
auto manufacturers in the world are losing market share compared to
100% of the non-union manufacturers which are gaining. Those numbers
do not lie. No bleating, No squalking, just the cold facts, unions
and long term success are incompatible.

As it happens, and not that it's relevent, I've spent over a year
in europe, married a woman from there, worked with 3 companies, and
been in 7 countries.

 

in partnership with chrysler
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monocoque

I stand corrected.

Well, still happened

but that was imposed on manufacturers, kicking and screaming, by
californias emissions laws.

no, I meant the ECU. again, you'll just say it was installed to
deal with epa laws, but it still happened here. As did the catalytic
converter.

gps is /utterly/ irrelevant when your crankshafts are cast, your

here's an interesting bit. anyway, until pretty recently, the us auto
industry was at least fully competitive with anyone's best. What
changed? I'll tell you, the technology changed and the companies were
prevented from implementing it due to UCS interference (union cock
suckers)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automotive_superlatives#Firsts

If management doesn't have the balls to face down a strike, lose
billions of dollars and precious market share, and then have the
federal government step in and decide what to do based on what will
win votes you mean? look, this isn't complicated, the unions are
strangling the industry, they aren't the only problem, but they are
the biggest.

It does support what I said. they had a dispute about freaking
bar codes. I was wrong about strike vs lockout, but it really amounts
to the same thing, the unions refused to use the new tech, and the
company said you have to. the clerical staff is and was nonunion, so
the union claims that they were trying to exclude the clerical staff
from the union were bullshit. It's a little hard to find decent
objective analysis of political bullshit that happened 10 years ago,
so I'm going to have to ask you to look past the spin they put on that
one.

All of them. starting salary for ALL branches of engineering is
40k plus or minus 5 depending on location and specialty.

As they do here.

Okay, thing 1 was that I was talking about union pay scales
compared to professional pay scales, and pointing out that they are
consistently higher.

Lag. unions work great as long as nothing changes. you'll note
that for the past 20 years, bmw and mercedes have been declining HARD
in quality, reliability and overall desireability. besides, luxury
cars are a bit of a special case.

Nissan is japanese and the rest of them combined do not amount to
the sales on the toyota prius. France effectively has no auto
industry.

the reason we don't do that is the unions will not allow it.
very simple, and very clearly true. Automation eliminates jobs.

Okay, but we're trying to answer the "why can't they make it?"
question, and the answer is very simple. Unions. 100% of all union
auto manufacturers in the world are losing market share compared to
100% of the non-union manufacturers which are gaining. Those numbers
do not lie. No bleating, No squalking, just the cold facts, unions
and long term success are incompatible.

As it happens, and not that it's relevent, I've spent over a year
in europe, married a woman from there, worked with 3 companies, and
been in 7 countries.

 

but you were trying to argue it from the "automotive innovation"
position, as if it was leadership by the auto industry. it wasn't. it
was california's environmental laws that /forced/ a highly reluctant
industry into compliance. and they fought it tooth and nail - all the
way to federal court.

i can tell you for sure, the bit on injection chronology is wrong. the
me109 german fighter plane from ww2 used fuel injection, and that system
was tested extensively on german racing cars in the 1930's as the nazi's
armed ready for war, but in "stealth mode" due to the treaty of
versailles. it may not have been used on production vehicles over
there, but to claim that it dates from the 50's is incorrect.

unions are a problem, but other fundamental problems are much bigger.
they're /not/ responsible for poor product design, they're /not/
responsible for poor product specification, they /not/ responsible for
lack of innovation, they're /not/ responsible for failure to bring new
product to market, and they're most /definitely/ not responsible for suv's!

no, they were on board with bar codes from day one - they simply wanted
data inputters to have the choice of being union. what's so freakin'
tough about that?

translation: it's hard to find anything that supports the "unions caused
it" position! basically because it doesn't exist.

but you were arguing that it was a union problem /here/! it's not.
it's a union "problem" everywhere. the point is, detroit is citing it
as the "cause". it's not. it's management paralysis and lack of gonads
in dealing with their own lack of input.

but it's the same or worse in europe. detroit citing "union" as the
cause of their problem is simply failure to acknowledge the elephant in
the room.

nothing much luxury about a vw. besides, mercedes are low end crap in
europe - it's only dumb americans being willing to pay a premium that
makes them "prestige" over here. ever ridden a taxi in germany?

controlled by renault, france.

yes they do. they /export/ nothing to the us, but nissan sell well.
see above. and they sell massively throughout europe, the middle east
and south america.

no, exporting jobs to china eliminates jobs. automation retains jobs.
fewer jobs for sure, but they are retained, along with the technology.
ask motorola about the "returns" they get from exporting their jobs and
technology to china - a market flooded with cheap knock-off chinese
competition where they're having serious problems. motorola's
technology and intellectual property walked out the door every evening
when their chinese employees went home. and now it's being used against
their dumb asses. if they'd stayed home and automated, they could
compete on price and keep their technology safe.

elephant in the room - their product sucks! if they can't make anything
worth buying, they're going to go out of business. cost structures are
immaterial in comparison.

so how did you miss the fact that unions have europe strangled with a 35
hour week, toxic high wages and benefits, and labor laws that prevent
terminations? none of those things exist here. companies here say they
can't make a profit because of unions, but the europeans manage to be
able to in spite of them? something's terribly wrong with that excuse,
particularly when you understand that it's the /european/ divisions of
gm and frod that are generating the profits that keep those two
companies afloat. kinda.

reality is, detroit management that has lost touch with their customer
base over here. and has continued to ignore the 30 year rising tide of
japanese manufacturers using AMERICAN management skills and AMERICAN
quality control to thrash us at the games WE invented. unions may be a
huge pita, but bleating about them is like bleating about the fleas on a
dog when it has your balls in its mouth - they're simply not the #1 problem.

 

but you were trying to argue it from the "automotive innovation"
position, as if it was leadership by the auto industry. it wasn't. it
was california's environmental laws that /forced/ a highly reluctant
industry into compliance. and they fought it tooth and nail - all the
way to federal court.

i can tell you for sure, the bit on injection chronology is wrong. the
me109 german fighter plane from ww2 used fuel injection, and that system
was tested extensively on german racing cars in the 1930's as the nazi's
armed ready for war, but in "stealth mode" due to the treaty of
versailles. it may not have been used on production vehicles over
there, but to claim that it dates from the 50's is incorrect.

unions are a problem, but other fundamental problems are much bigger.
they're /not/ responsible for poor product design, they're /not/
responsible for poor product specification, they /not/ responsible for
lack of innovation, they're /not/ responsible for failure to bring new
product to market, and they're most /definitely/ not responsible for suv's!

no, they were on board with bar codes from day one - they simply wanted
data inputters to have the choice of being union. what's so freakin'
tough about that?

translation: it's hard to find anything that supports the "unions caused
it" position! basically because it doesn't exist.

but you were arguing that it was a union problem /here/! it's not.
it's a union "problem" everywhere. the point is, detroit is citing it
as the "cause". it's not. it's management paralysis and lack of gonads
in dealing with their own lack of input.

but it's the same or worse in europe. detroit citing "union" as the
cause of their problem is simply failure to acknowledge the elephant in
the room.

nothing much luxury about a vw. besides, mercedes are low end crap in
europe - it's only dumb americans being willing to pay a premium that
makes them "prestige" over here. ever ridden a taxi in germany?

controlled by renault, france.

yes they do. they /export/ nothing to the us, but nissan sell well.
see above. and they sell massively throughout europe, the middle east
and south america.

no, exporting jobs to china eliminates jobs. automation retains jobs.
fewer jobs for sure, but they are retained, along with the technology.
ask motorola about the "returns" they get from exporting their jobs and
technology to china - a market flooded with cheap knock-off chinese
competition where they're having serious problems. motorola's
technology and intellectual property walked out the door every evening
when their chinese employees went home. and now it's being used against
their dumb asses. if they'd stayed home and automated, they could
compete on price and keep their technology safe.

elephant in the room - their product sucks! if they can't make anything
worth buying, they're going to go out of business. cost structures are
immaterial in comparison.

so how did you miss the fact that unions have europe strangled with a 35
hour week, toxic high wages and benefits, and labor laws that prevent
terminations? none of those things exist here. companies here say they
can't make a profit because of unions, but the europeans manage to be
able to in spite of them? something's terribly wrong with that excuse,
particularly when you understand that it's the /european/ divisions of
gm and frod that are generating the profits that keep those two
companies afloat. kinda.

reality is, detroit management that has lost touch with their customer
base over here. and has continued to ignore the 30 year rising tide of
japanese manufacturers using AMERICAN management skills and AMERICAN
quality control to thrash us at the games WE invented. unions may be a
huge pita, but bleating about them is like bleating about the fleas on a
dog when it has your balls in its mouth - they're simply not the #1 problem.

 

in partnership with chrysler

innovation wether it happens to accomodate a mandate or due to a
drive for excellence or is delivered by pixies is still innovation.

Still an interesting page all in all.

you are wrong. if costs are higher for X, then they need to be
cut on Y to stay even. costs for labor are higher and the automation
is a PITA to implement for every step of the implementation, so if
that's a no-go, then the costs have to be made up in other places.
The first cut is materials quality. second is tolerancing because
that has a huge effect on costs. third cut is engineering. you don't
have to agree, and frankly, this conversation is tiring. suvs are the
fault of the american regulation and the consumer, not the
manufacturers, so they are a red herring, the manufacturers were a
little slow realizing that the suv day is past, but not badly so.

The fact that their existing data inputters were non-union?

hard to find any other areticle whatsoever that isn't from
socialism weekly. doesn't change the facts, which even in socialism
weekly look BAD for the union position if you read the article I
posted and look even a tiny bit past the spin.

http://www.doe.mtu.edu/news/degree_worth.html

well, seems that chem-Es and EEs beat that and it's aparently
been a while since I looked. I will therefore acknowledge being off a
mite. However, the fact that a chemE is in the same freaking ballpark
with the starting salary of a high school drop-out garbageman is
nauseating.

The fact that the european auto manufacturers are getting stepped
on by the asian non-union shops doesn't give you a clue? the US
manufacturers are collapsing first since they have the problem worse
than europe, after all, the european unions DID allow the automation
to happen. so, the collapse of the US manufacturers is making a hole
big enough for the european inefficient unionized plants to tread
water while the asians advance by leaps and bounds.

it's not the only thing, but it is the biggest thing. also, the
union-ess in the us extends to all phases of the supply cycle more
than in europe, europe has all the russian imports to draw from,
nonunion steel, etc. Detroit doesn't. Okay, I'll grant that
management has made some hideous calls, but the unions are the lions
share of the issue.

yep, I have ridden in the 25 year old mercedes taxis in half of
europe.

And mercedes is controlled by Chrysler, US. And renault is
merged with GM, Saab merged a while back also with GM, bmw merged with
land rover, british, jaguar merged with ford, so really, there's not
much point in your statement. nissan got big as a japanese car, it's
been merged with renault, we'll see where that goes, but for now it's
still a japanese car, just like mercedes is a german car and gm is
american, regardless of the stock ownership.

nissan is a great japanese car company, however, like I said, all
the rest of the french cars combined are less total volume than the
toyota prius.

yes, however, the company does not need to ask anyon'e permission
to move the jobs, they DO need to ask permission, face the strike, and
go through the arbitration to automate.

yep, gotta rob peter if paul is to get paid! non-union
manufacturers are eating union shops up wholesale, why is toyota fast
becoming the largest manufacturer and ford failing? what is the one
fundamental difference between the toyota factory in the midwest and
the ford factories in the midwest? UNIONS!!.

because they DON'T. they have a few areas strangled thusly, and
those countries are having economic problems. notice the patterns?
the ford plant in europe? NON-UNION!!

We're going to have to agree to disagree here. it's fairly clear
that you're not stupid, however, we're seeing this from different
perspectives, I am both an engineer and a business-man, so I see the
true costs the unions place on their industries, I see the performance
of non-union vs union shops, and I see where those costs are being
made up. Your background is unclear, however, it's pretty clear that
you do have some technical background, and you are seeing the finished
product inadequacy. I lay the blame for that in 1 place, you in
another. screw it, in the end we're all dead anyway.

 

in partnership with chrysler

innovation wether it happens to accomodate a mandate or due to a
drive for excellence or is delivered by pixies is still innovation.

Still an interesting page all in all.

you are wrong. if costs are higher for X, then they need to be
cut on Y to stay even. costs for labor are higher and the automation
is a PITA to implement for every step of the implementation, so if
that's a no-go, then the costs have to be made up in other places.
The first cut is materials quality. second is tolerancing because
that has a huge effect on costs. third cut is engineering. you don't
have to agree, and frankly, this conversation is tiring. suvs are the
fault of the american regulation and the consumer, not the
manufacturers, so they are a red herring, the manufacturers were a
little slow realizing that the suv day is past, but not badly so.

The fact that their existing data inputters were non-union?

hard to find any other areticle whatsoever that isn't from
socialism weekly. doesn't change the facts, which even in socialism
weekly look BAD for the union position if you read the article I
posted and look even a tiny bit past the spin.

http://www.doe.mtu.edu/news/degree_worth.html

well, seems that chem-Es and EEs beat that and it's aparently
been a while since I looked. I will therefore acknowledge being off a
mite. However, the fact that a chemE is in the same freaking ballpark
with the starting salary of a high school drop-out garbageman is
nauseating.

The fact that the european auto manufacturers are getting stepped
on by the asian non-union shops doesn't give you a clue? the US
manufacturers are collapsing first since they have the problem worse
than europe, after all, the european unions DID allow the automation
to happen. so, the collapse of the US manufacturers is making a hole
big enough for the european inefficient unionized plants to tread
water while the asians advance by leaps and bounds.

it's not the only thing, but it is the biggest thing. also, the
union-ess in the us extends to all phases of the supply cycle more
than in europe, europe has all the russian imports to draw from,
nonunion steel, etc. Detroit doesn't. Okay, I'll grant that
management has made some hideous calls, but the unions are the lions
share of the issue.

yep, I have ridden in the 25 year old mercedes taxis in half of
europe.

And mercedes is controlled by Chrysler, US. And renault is
merged with GM, Saab merged a while back also with GM, bmw merged with
land rover, british, jaguar merged with ford, so really, there's not
much point in your statement. nissan got big as a japanese car, it's
been merged with renault, we'll see where that goes, but for now it's
still a japanese car, just like mercedes is a german car and gm is
american, regardless of the stock ownership.

nissan is a great japanese car company, however, like I said, all
the rest of the french cars combined are less total volume than the
toyota prius.

yes, however, the company does not need to ask anyon'e permission
to move the jobs, they DO need to ask permission, face the strike, and
go through the arbitration to automate.

yep, gotta rob peter if paul is to get paid! non-union
manufacturers are eating union shops up wholesale, why is toyota fast
becoming the largest manufacturer and ford failing? what is the one
fundamental difference between the toyota factory in the midwest and
the ford factories in the midwest? UNIONS!!.

because they DON'T. they have a few areas strangled thusly, and
those countries are having economic problems. notice the patterns?
the ford plant in europe? NON-UNION!!

We're going to have to agree to disagree here. it's fairly clear
that you're not stupid, however, we're seeing this from different
perspectives, I am both an engineer and a business-man, so I see the
true costs the unions place on their industries, I see the performance
of non-union vs union shops, and I see where those costs are being
made up. Your background is unclear, however, it's pretty clear that
you do have some technical background, and you are seeing the finished
product inadequacy. I lay the blame for that in 1 place, you in
another. screw it, in the end we're all dead anyway.

 

bill wrote:

detroit can't exactly claim it a glorious achievement of leadership and
innovation. they fought and sued to stop it. and lost.

and if sales are zero, costs are irrelevant.

in europe...

you might be closer to the truth than you intend - management doesn't
have the balls to implement! personally, i have /zero/ sympathy if they
can't get it together.

but automation slashes costs on everything. the only cost increase is
that of capital, but it's cheaper to pay interest on machine loans than
it is to pay salaries.

but it loses you customers! don't sales matter?

eh? so who makes them? japan didn't. japan stood about for years
wondering if we'd gone insane.

not a red herring if 50% of domestic production capacity and the
majority of domestic revenue generation is derived from them.

no, having a lock-out in case inputters might want to join a union!

maybe they should join a union? [JOKE]

but they're not.

european manufacturers produce product european consumers want.
/that's/ why they're not collapsing. even american manufacturers in
europe produce product european consumers want, and profitably. why
can't american manufacturers in america produce product american
consumers want? profitably.

dude, if the product is crap and not selling, there's no amount of
union-blaming can cover for that.

other way around. daimler bought chrysler and senior management here
was german. but the germans just sold it back to wall street, so it's
back in domestic hands. now we'll see if the wall st sharpsters have
the gonads to do what needs to be done. or whether they'll just asset
strip and destroy.

cite. there were talks, but they ended a year ago with no deal.
apparently gm wanted to be paid to have renault bail them out!!!

saab were bought by gm - they were desperate for a european marque of
quality.

bmw bought range rover. vw bought land rover.

ford bought jaguar. that's what prompted gm's purchase of saab.

nissan was in the can and sliding fast. then renault bought 44% and
turned them around.

so rolls-royce is english, even though it's now owned by bmw and has bmw
componentry?

so it's lack of balls. just what i've said all along.

how do unions affect sales and market share? frod is failing because
their product line is crap and not selling, even with massive price
slashing. there's no amount of union blaming can get in the way of
frod's poor lineup choice.

wrong. highly unionized.

i work closely with union and non-union vendors. and some of the lower
rank union management are both stupid and corrupt. but in spite of
that, their membership is, by and large, highly dependable and work is
done to higher standards, even though it's more expensive. but it's not
so much more expensive as to be unusable. pretty much covers the
reliability/quality delta from where i stand.

it ain't over till it's over. this shit can be turned around if we
don't give up. and while we're down, stop shooting ourselves in the
foot by giving our jobs and technology to the chinese. automation will
cure that problem, but only after management acknowledge their own
problems and take some initiative rather than simply react and complain.

 

bill wrote:

detroit can't exactly claim it a glorious achievement of leadership and
innovation. they fought and sued to stop it. and lost.

and if sales are zero, costs are irrelevant.

in europe...

you might be closer to the truth than you intend - management doesn't
have the balls to implement! personally, i have /zero/ sympathy if they
can't get it together.

but automation slashes costs on everything. the only cost increase is
that of capital, but it's cheaper to pay interest on machine loans than
it is to pay salaries.

but it loses you customers! don't sales matter?

eh? so who makes them? japan didn't. japan stood about for years
wondering if we'd gone insane.

not a red herring if 50% of domestic production capacity and the
majority of domestic revenue generation is derived from them.

no, having a lock-out in case inputters might want to join a union!

maybe they should join a union? [JOKE]

but they're not.

european manufacturers produce product european consumers want.
/that's/ why they're not collapsing. even american manufacturers in
europe produce product european consumers want, and profitably. why
can't american manufacturers in america produce product american
consumers want? profitably.

dude, if the product is crap and not selling, there's no amount of
union-blaming can cover for that.

other way around. daimler bought chrysler and senior management here
was german. but the germans just sold it back to wall street, so it's
back in domestic hands. now we'll see if the wall st sharpsters have
the gonads to do what needs to be done. or whether they'll just asset
strip and destroy.

cite. there were talks, but they ended a year ago with no deal.
apparently gm wanted to be paid to have renault bail them out!!!

saab were bought by gm - they were desperate for a european marque of
quality.

bmw bought range rover. vw bought land rover.

ford bought jaguar. that's what prompted gm's purchase of saab.

nissan was in the can and sliding fast. then renault bought 44% and
turned them around.

so rolls-royce is english, even though it's now owned by bmw and has bmw
componentry?

so it's lack of balls. just what i've said all along.

how do unions affect sales and market share? frod is failing because
their product line is crap and not selling, even with massive price
slashing. there's no amount of union blaming can get in the way of
frod's poor lineup choice.

wrong. highly unionized.

i work closely with union and non-union vendors. and some of the lower
rank union management are both stupid and corrupt. but in spite of
that, their membership is, by and large, highly dependable and work is
done to higher standards, even though it's more expensive. but it's not
so much more expensive as to be unusable. pretty much covers the
reliability/quality delta from where i stand.

it ain't over till it's over. this shit can be turned around if we
don't give up. and while we're down, stop shooting ourselves in the
foot by giving our jobs and technology to the chinese. automation will
cure that problem, but only after management acknowledge their own
problems and take some initiative rather than simply react and complain.

 

you are wrong. if costs are higher for X, then they need to be

yes, and to have sales you have to produce a comparable product
at a comparable cost. can't do that when the biggest cost is twice as
expensive for you as the competition.

nope, nice juicy eastern european nonunion steel and
manufacturing labor markets. You can pay a union assembly shop, but
not an entire supply chain.

except that you will have to face a strike, hire tens of
thousands of lawyers and pay court fees and lose market share while
you're not making cars in order to pull it off. nope, cheaper to keep
sliding, you're dead anyway, might as well loot the body.

only if they are at a profit. making up a per unit loss on
volume only kills you faster.

the US manufacturers made them because it was what their
customers wanted. Now they are backing away from them as the market
dries up, just like any competent management team would do.

thus proving exactly that US auto management is neither myopic
lacking in testicular fortitude, or stupid, they gave the customers
what they wanted, in advance of thecompetition.

yep, they are. european car sales are holding level or dropping
while japanese sales are gaining furiously.

because the unions cost too much.

if the product is crap because the unions are tooexpensive to
allow for the manufacture of a good car at a comparable price then
there is no amount of management blaming that will solve the problem.

gee, perhaps by making a comparable product MORE EXPENSIVE?!?

nope, non-union plant in russia, makes the entire european focus
line. ford is closing their unionized western european plants.

yup, it can be turned around if people get their heads out of
their asses and figure out that if they keep holding out for
featherbed, unrealistic pensions, no copay medical insurance, and
guaranteed jobs for life, they will have no jobs whatsoever.

 

you are wrong. if costs are higher for X, then they need to be

yes, and to have sales you have to produce a comparable product
at a comparable cost. can't do that when the biggest cost is twice as
expensive for you as the competition.

nope, nice juicy eastern european nonunion steel and
manufacturing labor markets. You can pay a union assembly shop, but
not an entire supply chain.

except that you will have to face a strike, hire tens of
thousands of lawyers and pay court fees and lose market share while
you're not making cars in order to pull it off. nope, cheaper to keep
sliding, you're dead anyway, might as well loot the body.

only if they are at a profit. making up a per unit loss on
volume only kills you faster.

the US manufacturers made them because it was what their
customers wanted. Now they are backing away from them as the market
dries up, just like any competent management team would do.

thus proving exactly that US auto management is neither myopic
lacking in testicular fortitude, or stupid, they gave the customers
what they wanted, in advance of thecompetition.

yep, they are. european car sales are holding level or dropping
while japanese sales are gaining furiously.

because the unions cost too much.

if the product is crap because the unions are tooexpensive to
allow for the manufacture of a good car at a comparable price then
there is no amount of management blaming that will solve the problem.

gee, perhaps by making a comparable product MORE EXPENSIVE?!?

nope, non-union plant in russia, makes the entire european focus
line. ford is closing their unionized western european plants.

yup, it can be turned around if people get their heads out of
their asses and figure out that if they keep holding out for
featherbed, unrealistic pensions, no copay medical insurance, and
guaranteed jobs for life, they will have no jobs whatsoever.

 

and if sales are zero, it doesn't matter what your expenses are - you'll
make no money.

eh? steel is a global commodity. it's traded on global markets. it
costs less than $700 a ton dockside u.s.a. it's the steelmaker's
problem if they can't produce it at a competitive price, not the car
maker's.

<snip>

ok, this is the point at which i belatedly realize that you're simply
not here for discussion - there's not a shred of rationality or reality
in what you just said.

 

and if sales are zero, it doesn't matter what your expenses are - you'll
make no money.

eh? steel is a global commodity. it's traded on global markets. it
costs less than $700 a ton dockside u.s.a. it's the steelmaker's
problem if they can't produce it at a competitive price, not the car
maker's.

<snip>

ok, this is the point at which i belatedly realize that you're simply
not here for discussion - there's not a shred of rationality or reality
in what you just said.