Warming up the engine....

In fact, my 120K mile 92 Civic, with 3K mile oil change intervals and

Oil analysis by itself can not determine that an engine is "in brand new
shape".


--
'03 S2000
'94 Accord

It's just about going fast...that's all...

http://home.insight.rr.com/cgreen/

 

Don't really want to add any more flame into the discussion, however:

1. do you know that warm-up time while idling is at least 2-4 times longer
than under reasonable load (under 2.5-3k rpm under 45 mph), therefore engine
is exposed to the clearances you mentioned for A LOT LONGER when you idle.
2. do you think that reasonable load (under 2.5-3k rpm, under 45 mph) hurts
A LOT? Do you think that going 40 mph at 2.5 k rpm is a "load" per se at
all? (Flat terrain, please)
3. do you really think that oil system for 1.5-2.5 l engine needs a whole
lot time to boost the pressure back after sitting overnight or starting
"dry" after oil change?

TNX

 

Ok, I'll buy at least some of that.

 

My 1988 CRX has 205,900 miles on it and gets driven within 20 seconds
of starting it every day. I live in NJ, change the oil every 3,000
miles (Castrol GTX 5-30, oem filter) and hit redline at least once a
day. If I've shaved any longevity from my engine I won't mind as the
body is deteriorating at a much quicker pace.

 

You should catch their show, it's hilarious. They aren't exactly good
ol' boys but MIT grads who run a garage in Boston. They are pretty
bright but will also admit that they are sometimes just making it up.
You could call them up and tell them about your testing.

Thanks for posting that BTW. I am always a little amazed about
claims such as synthetic oil is better. It may be, but I have never
heard of any actual testing to show that. Same with the 3000 mile
oil change. Certainly a private car owner would have only the weakest
anecdotal evidence from personal experience.

Which reminds me of an experiment that Tom or Ray is doing with an old
Dodge Colt Vista the he owns. He stopped changing the oil about five
years ago and now only adds oil if it is low. He mentions it every
now and then so I guess it is still running.

 

Modern engines do run rich when cold.

The fuel mixes poorly when when the incoming air is cold. The richness
is compensation for the fuel that forms useless large dropplets or that
settles onto the engine's surfaces. The tailpipe result is extra
gasoline coming out.

 

Ever tried to idle a small car up to temperature on a cold day? It will
never happen in some cars. It doesn't in my 97 Civic and it sure as
hell wouldn't in my 88 Tercel. Trying to idle them warm is just wearing
out the engine without getting a single mile from it.

My Civic has 135K miles and I've never idled it warm. It still runs as
good as new too.

 

And it won't happen on a Honda.

In fact, on a really cold day, get the engine good and warm and turn the
heat on and then go to a long traffic light. You'll find cool air on
your feet, because it simply can't produce any heat at idle. That's a
Honda for you.

 

If you've never heard of Tom and Ray, you need to get out more.

Since you're writing from Ohio State, my guess is you're an 18 year old
know it all who actually knows exactly nothing.

Tom and Ray have engineering credentials from MIT, in addition to 30+
years of experience each. I'll take them over you any dea.

The real world facts are, you don't have a clue what you're talking
about.

 

With regard to synthetic oils being better. I think the recent class
action suit against Mercedes suggests that they can deffinitlely be
used for much longer periods with out the need to be changed.
_____________________________________________________________________________

Conventional Oil Costs Carmaker $32 Million

By Tim Sullivan

American owners of Mercedes-Benz cars were awarded a $32 million
settlement this month on a complaint that their engines may have
sustained early wear because they were not advised to use synthetic
motor oil.

The class action settlement, approved April 9 by a U.S. District Court
judge in Philadelphia, calls for Mercedes-Benz USA to mail vouchers
for a free oil change to more than 350,000 owners and lessees of cars
from the 1998 through 2001 model years. In addition, the company
commits to cover repairs estimated to cost $20 million.

The case involved a Flexible Service System (FSS), included on nearly
all Mercedes-Benz cars sold in the United States from 1998 to 2001.
The system is designed to help owners lower maintenance costs and to
reduce environmental impacts of used motor oil by advising owners when
the oil truly needs to be changed. According to Mercedes-Benz, the
system begins with a minimum interval of 10,000 miles and adjusts
upward as it detects favorable conditions, such as extended highway
travel.

Documentation brought forth during the case indicated that intervals
ranged up to 20,000 miles, with the average being 12,000 miles.

The problem, according to the plaintiffs, was that owners manuals and
promotional materials advised motorists to use conventional motor
oils.

"The company's intentions – to save its customers money and to protect
the environment – are certainly commendable," attorney Kenneth
Jacobsen told Lube Report. "But it didn't work because conventional
oils just don't stand up to those intervals."

Mercedes-Benz mailed a letter to owners in 2001 advising them to use
synthetic motor oils. Ironically, it was that letter that eventually
led the original plaintiff, Joseph A. O'Keefe, to file suit.

"He had worked for years in the automotive business, so he thought it
was strange when he received this letter from out of the blue
recommending that he switch from conventional oil," Jacobsen said. "He
wrote to Mercedes to find out what was going on and received what he
considered to be an unsatisfactory answer."

Jacobsen added that the automaker did not dispute during the case that
the intervals recommended by the FSS were too long for conventional
oils.

"It was never really an issue," he said. "They pretty much
acknowledged that they had a problem. Their argument was that it
wasn't as big of a problem as what we said and that the case did not
merit a class-action suit."

After the settlement, Mercedes-Benz issued a statement denying
wrongdoing and maintaining that conventional API SH and SJ motor oils
should withstand the intervals recommended by the FSS without sludging
or related engine damage. The statement did not address other aspects
of engine oil performance, such as fuel economy preservation or
protection of emissions controls. It also noted that the vehicles were
factory-filled with oil that "met the same standard as approved
synthetic oils."

Mercedes-Benz USA Public Relations Manager Frederick R. Heiler
acknowledged that the intervals for which the FSS was programmed
significantly exceed those typically recommended for conventional
oils. He noted, however, that typical intervals are "blind"
recommendations – that is, made for cases in which neither oil nor
driving conditions are monitored.

"A system that monitors oil condition and the amount of highway
driving can often prescribe much longer change intervals," Heiler
said. The FSS does not directly monitor oil condition.

The vouchers to be mailed by Mercedes-Benz will pay for installation
of synthetic oils. With their face value of $35, that part of the
settlement has a price tag of $12.3 million. Judge Franklin S. Van
Antwerpen arrived at $20 million for potential repairs based on expert
testimony. His decision approving the settlement cited allegations
that several thousand owners had reported problems by the time O'Keefe
filed his suit.

 

I didn't think we had any flames yet.

A slight bit longer yes...but a lot less load too...which is more important.

"A LOT" is subjective. I do know that the engines we tore down that were not
warmed up, showed increased ring wear, and piston scuffing.

Yes...it is in fact by definition a "load".

No...that's not what I'm talking about. IM talking about decreased
tolerances throughout the engine. This is what causes the excessive wear.

U r welcome.


--
'03 S2000
'94 Accord

It's just about going fast...that's all...

http://home.insight.rr.com/cgreen/

 

Correct...that's why I said the "maximum".

"Wear" on a piston engine is nil at idle.

Great...take care.

 

Which allows me to bring up piston slap. My 93 Civic, 175,000 miles, has it
when cold. My thoughts on it developing is from driving without allowing it to
warm up before loading it. As of about 150,000 miles I now allow it to warm up
at idling or slight revving before driving and it doesn't seem to be getting
worse. Time and more miles will tell.
Whether loading cold is the cause or not, I don't know. It's just a gut
feeling.


John M.

 

Yep - I remember one time, it was about -15F outside, and my old '90 Grand
Am (which took forever to warm up anyway) actually started COOLING OFF if I
was idling!

I was pretty impressed by that

 

Bottom line, idling to warm up is a bad idea and a waste of time.

 

agree

 

Interesting. I use Mobil 1 and change the oil twice a year (5-7K
miles.) Haven't had any engine problems with my GS-R (115K) or my
Volvo (146K.)

I do know that Mobil paid for some very expensive engines in the
early '90s due to shortcomings with their synthetic aircraft oil.
Synthetic certainly isn't a panacea but it may make a difference in
those Benz's doing 12K intervals. Not clear that it is doing anything
for my Hondas on my maintenance schedule.

 

continued high speed driving (cross country ) I switch to Mobil 1, 15w 50
and leave it in until December sometime when I go back to 5w30.

The beauty of using Mobil 1 is that the gel point is something like -45*F? ,
so it never gets any thicjker than 15 weight oil even here in Southern
ontario in the early winter .The reason I change back to 5w30 near the end
of December is that we DO get some -35 *F weather in January and February
from time to time ..and I`m not sure if the specs on the container are THAT
exact ?

I also find that it can wirthstand higher temps at sustained highway speeds
,all day without degrading or using too much,some speeds in excess of 80-90
miles an hour , and ambient in the 80`s and 90`s,conditions and smokeys
permitting.
ed/ontario

 

block stays cold much longer than the pistons and this creates wear. I`m
talking anything below freezing? the engine should be given a few minutes to
warm up and circulate the oil. and then driven off gentlywithout pushing
the car to its limits until it is totally warmed up.I have practised this
for years in Ontario and never had an engine problem
ed/ontario

 

That proves it for me Actually studies have shown that waiting for
the oil pressure to reach noraml, a matter of seconds, is beter than a
prolonged warm up.