What about these gifts to Toyota

I'd give my eye teeth to have someone bring in an actual business to my
area.

See, we have a LOT of people here that think like you. Even though no one
has started a new farm in 30 years, they turned down turning 55 acres of
land on the edge of town into an industrial office/call center because we
need to keep arm land. Um, why? The only 'farms' that get started around
here are roadside tomato stands. We aren't quite the 'breadbasket of the
world' here...

Progress actually moves backwards here (there's an oxymoron for you).
The small thinking people here make sure nothing happens. As a result, we
are in a constant recession here, people have to take minimum wage jobs
because there isn't anything else, and welfare is the biggest employer in
the area.

Can't even have a decent shopping center because of these idiots


http://www.sprawl-busters.com/

An International Clearinghouse on Big Box Anti-Sprawl Information
No matter what the logo on the building says--Wal-Mart, Home Depot,
Target, Lowe's, Kohls, CVS--if its unwanted development, Sprawl-Busters
can help you stop it. In hundreds of communities, we have helped citizens
groups strategize and carry out a plan to stop the superstores.


Victories:

East Longmeadow, MA
Easthampton, MA
Greenfield, MA
Hadley, MA
Lancaster, MA
Lee, MA

Boy, sure am glad they were victorious! In order to go to a discount store
I have to drive 20 miles out of my way. If the local 'department store'
doesn't have it (and chances are they won't) I waste my time going out of
town.

Not only that, but they squawk about getting off foreign oil, but when
someone proposes a wind farm, OH NO!!! You'll spoil the view! You'll kill
birds!

The week after the company finally gave up and went further west in the
state, the morons were out on the twon common with their stupid little
signs, "End dependence on foreign oil!" "We need clean energy now!"

Great

Making It Here (streamimg video) | Oct 13 | Hike with Llamas, Wood Carving, Wind Power
13 Oct 2008 04:00:00 GMT
We also will explore wind power in Heath, MA and
Searsburg, VT with the people from Green Mountain Power.

I can't find any references to the outcry that went out, but the meatheads
around here successfully sent the wind power company packing.

Please, Toyota, move here! PLEASE!!!

 

An undeveloped area that knows a race to the bottom hurts them too.
Understands that things can indeed get worse. Intelligent folks.

 

LOL! A bunch of bass-ackwards l00natics!

What is it you people have against business and industry?

Better to have no jobs, eh?

That's OK! The Messiah gets inaugurated in about 30 days. He will save us
all! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't tell me you're another one wanint the government doing everything
for you. No wonder you hate business.

 

Uh... reading and posting to the internet as much as you have, all day
every working day suggests you are overpaid by a considerable margin.

You aren't privy to the soul sucking nature of mind-bendingly boring
and repetitive assembly line work with little or no opportunity for
advancement other than by compensation.

An automotive engineer has the opportunity to advance their career and
learn more during working hours as opposed to the knowledge and
experience they bring to work with them each morning.

Plus, they don't have to seek permission to take a leak.

I think dragging your boss to your computer and showing them what you
really accomplish all day would radically adjust that perspective.

 

gpsman wrote:

(blah, blah, blah)

you're just bitter because I'm not only more intelligent than you but
better looking and sane as well, stalker boi. Didn't take you long to
find me in yet another group, did it? Get help.

nate


(adds gpsfuckwit to kill for alt.autos.gm, wonders where he's going to
pop up next. Probably should kill him completely, but it's kind of fun
to watch him desperately try to get my attention. Poor gpsmoron.)

 

Since when does the lack of personal initiative to improve one's potential
in life qualify as justification for compensation? Don't like
mind-numbing, repetitive work? Get some education and do what you want to
do. The fact about an unskilled job is exactly that - it requires no real
skill, therefore it is not something that commands the pay, respect and
rewards of better positions.

 

Oh, my... what a withering comeback...

Well... I feel confident in my ability to choose an oil viscosity
without help:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.trucks.ford/msg/708a8965cc082013?hl=en&dmode=source

I'm sure there's nothing more attractive than your tartar-laden teeth:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.dentistry/msg/b0a559950de97130?hl=en&dmode=source

Uh huh...

Funny you should mention that.

What led me here was curiosity regarding what type of genius would
resort to taunting a man about his dead wife:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.driving/msg/fe721412c1e5597f?hl=en&dmode=source

Adding me to your killfiles is not nearly as effective as would be
simply ignoring my posts, painful as that option may be. You rarely
fail to reveal you're more of an imbecile than I have previously
suggested.

If there's anything easier than getting your attention it's pointing
out you're a moron.

 

Spurious conclusion; assumes personal initiative is absent in those
who are "less successful"..

Spurious conclusion; assumes all minds are created equal.

Spurious conclusion; assumes standing all day every work day is not a
"skill" of endurance, and that other "skills", such as sacrificing
your health, are inconsequential and unworthy of just compensation.

Take any automotive executive and require them to perform the duties
of an assembly line worker for a week and they'd call in sick
Wednesday... with a note from a doctor from the Mayo Clinic stating
the work was detrimental to their health.

 

Not less successful - not willing to invest in the efforts to prepare
themselves for the better jobs. It was a choice and the mind-bendinly
bored made that choice themselves.

So, you're saying they are too dumb to do anything better?

It's not a skill of endurance. There is no such thing. Nor is
"sacrificing your health" a skill - as if such a thing even existed. Your
arguments are laughable.

Why should they? They invested their energies in preparing themselves for
a life that did not require this type of work of them, and for jobs that
paid better.

Spurious conclusion: Believing that a missed attempt at defending the
baseless cry for compassion for mind-numbing repetitive labors, was
actually worth the time spent drafting it.

 

I think some of these replies are from people who have never had to do
bid/contract work, never had to worry about labor costing to jobs, etc.
Having just a little experience with that should reveal a fundamental
truth - a person's labor is worth exactly what the lowest price is that
an equally skilled, motivated, person who does equal quality work is
willing to accept for the job.

Now assembly line work *is* monotonous; it does not offer many
opportunities for on-the-job training for advancement; it may involve
increased risk of repetitive motion disorders; it may be in general
detrimental to one's health. THAT DOES NOT MATTER. If someone else is
willing to do the same job for less, and that someone else is otherwise
equal, then the holder of that job is being paid too much.

If, say, I'm collecting quotes from contractors for some painting and
patching work, and I toss out the low bid (from a reputable, quality
contractor) because I feel that he's not getting paid enough for the
work he's doing, what do you think my boss is going to say about that?

Now it is true that in the past some industrial employers did collude to
keep wages artificially low, and that *should* be illegal. It should
also be illegal to make working damaging long hours a condition of
keeping one's job, But I still say that it is asinine that someone
should be paid over $80K a year to work an assembly line. Heck, if I
could get a job like that I'd be tempted to take it (but not today,
given the precarious state of the industry.) It'd be a heck of a lot
less stressful than my current job and the money would pay the bills
just the same.

Now think about this... let's just assume for the sake of argument that
an assembly line job really does pay $80K a year (I would be shocked if
that were actually the case, but let's just get past that.) But there's
a pool of people who are either unemployed or working minimum-wage
service industry jobs who'd love to make $40K a year. If, say, GM
started hiring people at $40K a year to replace retirees, their labor
costs would drop. Thus, they could either roll that savings into
R&D/development, making their products more appealing, or reduce the
price of their product, making their products more price-competitive.
Thus, they might sell more and then they could hire MORE workers. Sure,
they'd all be paid less, but one can live in Michigan on $40K.
Certainly more comfortably than on unemployment or minimum wage (under
$14K a year.) Think about it.

Also: Life does not *owe* you anything, nor does society. You are
guaranteed life, liberty (not so much, anymore) and the *pursuit* of
happiness, and those other provisions of the Constitution and Bill of
Rights; and that only in the US, and you gotta keep a close eye on those
sneaky gubbmint buggers to make sure they're not infringing on them.
Nowhere in there does it state that one has a RIGHT to a frankly
exorbitant wage simply because they are willing to do a repetitive task
requiring little skill. You want lots of money, you work your arse off
for it, either by using your mind, your body, or a combination of the
two. (the alternative is to choose your parents carefully, but most of
us did not have the foresight to do this. And despite my parents' lack
of ludicrous amounts of old money, I still wouldn't trade 'em.)

nate

 

Perhaps. Perhaps unable to qualify for higher education. Everybody
can't go to college, if only because there isn't room for everybody at
colleges.

Any Drill Sergeant would beg to differ.

Any combat soldier would beg to differ.

Spurious conclusion; many if not most were born with silver spoons,
and paid, with Daddy's money, to have their book reports written for
them by the more industrious.

Not compassion; compensation. Mind-numbing repetitive labor extracts
a cost, both of the performer and their progeny. And it produces
something.

I think it would be quite a challenge to find someone who couldn't run
any car company into the ground.

 

Well then - that's no reason to argue for inappropriate amounts of pay,
just because they do mind-numbing work.

Having served under one, I can assure you that you are wrong. Endurance is
a quality, not a skill.

Having been there done that, I can also assure you that you are incorrect
again.

Many maybe - most, not likely. Most took out student loans, applied
themselves and made their way, only to be resented by those too lazy to do
the same thing.

It pays more than it is worth now. You have yet to produce an argument for
even the current level of pay. Little to no real skill deserves little to
no pay. Attempting to justify high levels of pay based on such arguments
as mind-numbing just don't cut it.

What in the hell is that supposed to mean?

 

What is "appropriate" is completely subjective.

So what's a skill?

Really? What of your health did you sacrifice? Do you feel fairly
compensated?

It is my experience and opinion that to reach higher levels of
management who you know is more important than what you know, or what
you have previously accomplished.

The most egregious example of this would be the moron who currently
occupies the White House.

That's merely your opinion.

You have yet to produce an argument current compensation is excessive,
and you can't.

I favor compensation based solely on measurable performance. I think
in that case assembly workers might be found to be underpaid and most
if not all US automotive executives would be found to owe the
shareholders money at EOY.

Well, next year you might find yourself on the long skinny end of a
Mexican backhoe, and more or less happy to be there, and I think that
might adjust your perspective.

The prosperity of the most comfortable and this nation is largely
supported by the efforts of the least comfortable.

They deserve to be more comfortable. Their efforts deserve to be
compensated to a degree where they don't have to live month-to-month,
to enjoy a little more fruit for their labor.

As "the system" is currently configured the rich get richer and the
poor get poorer, and more people are joining the ranks of the poor due
to circumstances largely beyond their control.

I see nothing wrong with efforts to adjust these inequities.

I guess at this point I should admit that, although I am not "rich", I
did manage to retire to a modest level of comfort 4 years ago at age
50.

"(The) Little to no real (demonstrated) skill (by auto execs) deserves
little to no pay."

 

This is a wholey different point. Has nothing to do with your silver spoon
assertion. That said - we could probably agree more than disagree on this
point. Being a function of the human nature though, it is not limited to
the management ranks.

I've been there. I've gone from high pay to on-the-street, and happy to
get anything that would contribute to paying the bills. I'm afraid you
don't know much about the person you're debating with.

No autoworker has had to live hand to mouth unless it was because of their
own mismanagement of their resources. Completely irrelevant.

Hats off to you. I had a similar target (55), but I've hit that point and
still haven't retired. Kept assuming more things that were worthwhile to
support, and now I keep working to support those initiatives - almost like
combining a hobby with the requirement to work.

 

Yeah, I couldn't support that assertion if my life depended on it.
It's more a perception of experience.

No, it is not. It does illustrate that initiative and education and
hard work and good judgment are unlikely to catapult one to the upper
level of middle class.

So... did you feel adequately compensated? Had you been injured did
you save enough money to go to college?

Ok, then. Are they sufficiently compensated to live more or less
comfortably, invest adequately for retirement, accumulate an emergency
nest-egg, put a couple kids through college, cover the cost of elder
care for their parents and prepared for the cost of their own (husband
& wife) health care after retirement?

ISTM UAW members are not so much over-compensated as the greatest
number of non-members are under-compensated.

It's difficult for me to tell what is "fact"; I've heard numbers
ranging from about $30 hr. to over $100.

ISTM an average man ought to be able to afford to comfortably support
his family, prepare for retirement and allow his wife to provide
primary care for the children.

Instead... well, you know what we now have instead. A shitload of
insufficiently supervised and parented children.

 

Don't get me started.

 

Yer starter busted?

 

I've attended college. My career has been in the professional ranks, and
it has experienced a few turmoil periods where companies folded up,
divisions were eliminated, etc. Found myself on the street. Where I live,
it is not possible to find the kind of job and compensation that I was
accustomed to, working for local companies. Therefore, you look for the
positions where being remote is not a hinderance. As age progresses, that
becomes the bigger hinderance. Not that any company will admit to that
though. During those periods, I resorted to things I could do to earn
income while on the street. I did electrical wiring, snow plowing, retail
sales, auto body work - whatever I could do to raise money. We tightened
down our belts of course, but no amount of that will offset a loss of
income. Alas - I ramble.

Was I adequately compensated? Yes. In my professional position, I've
always been handsomely compensated. On the street and making my way, yes I
was adequately compensated for the task I performed. Not to the levels I
was used to, but to the task I performed. The point being that not all
jobs are worth the same compensation.

I believe they are adequately compensated for these things. Not to the
point that they can build a million dollar 401K maybe, but that's part of
taking the short cut and not getting an education to enable jobs that do
pay better.

Not from my experience. But that is a limited experience. Compensation is
relative to the worth of the job and the value of the labor. If it is
commodity labor that anyone can do, then it's not going to pay as much as
labor that demands some higher level of knowledge, skill, risk, etc.

I've heard those also. I dismiss the higher numbers as those seem to be
the loaded cost for labor.

I agree. The problem comes in when people want bass boats, new trucks,
beers out every night, flat screen TV's, etc. The average auto worker -
union or non-union, makes enough to satsify your vision above... if he
manages his money well. If he wants all the toys and pleasures, and wants
what you suggest, then he needs to make himself marketable to higher paying
jobs.

Agreed. Across the ranks. Watching the new breed of management rising up
through the ranks is a scarey sight. No sense of anything except what they
want.

 

This is precisely the scenario that UAW workers want to avoid: having
to earn a living on their own personal abilities and merits. They
prefer to hid behind UAW (former) muscle and the addictions of the
American consumer.

 

You do realize that you're replying to the gpstard, right? I'm not
surprised that he'd take an irrational position on this subject -
there's plenty of precedent.

Oh, and well said.

Hell, at a 10% annual rate of growth (as opposed to a 40% hit, let's not
talk about that) if one can't build a million dollar 401(k) on 80K a
year one is not trying very hard.

IMHO we need fewer MBAs and more upwardly mobile engineers and
technicians in management position. (I'm lucky, my boss is an ex-tech.)

nate