Who will be the US "Big 3" in 2016?

I have not intention of teaching a class in a NG of how FWD and RWD assembly
lines must be operated, no matter the brand. I'll simply say again you
obviously know nothing about how vehicles are built on an assembly line if
that is what you believe.


mike hunt

 

Do your own research. I don't do homework for my own grand children. CAFE
for cars is 27.5 MPG not 30 MPG. Hint; Gas Guzzler Tax



mike hunt

 

I do not profess to be an expert on how assembly lines are operated, I only
assume that the design engineers I spoke with had some expertise in that
area.

Toyota uses the same assembly lines for FWD and RWD, at least back in the
fall of 1985, when I saw RWD Corolla Hatchbacks coming down the same line as
FWD Celicas at Tahara. Before then, I was not aware that it was practical
to assemble not only different driveline configurations, but different
models on the same line.

Why do FWD vehicles cost more to assemble than RWD vehicles?

 

They don't. In fact, FWD is easier to assemble because the entire
engine, transmission, front end assembly can be built freestanding and
then inserted as a unit into the vehicle, typically from the underside.

If you live near an automobile assembly plant you can probably arrange a
tour and see for yourself.

Another advantage of FWD is slightly reduced drivetran losses which
means that more of the power generated by the engine makes it to the
road-tire interface. All other things being equal, a FWD implementation
will yield higher fuel economy than the same component set implemented
as RWD.

Mike's rantings can generally be safely ignored. He generally hides
behind statements like "I dont' do research for my kids".

John

 

I spent 15 years working for an automaker, and while I do not consider
myself an expert on vehicle production systems, I am not totally unaware of
assembly methods and the advantages and disadvantages of FWD and RWD
powertrains.

I've read a few of Mike's posts, I was hoping to hear his explanation of why
FWD costs more than RWD.

 

FWD vehicles require more off line preassembly, which is more expensive .


mike hunt

 

I am aware that the CAFE standard for cars is 27.5 mpg. I am also
aware that, if you sell a lot of cars that get (optimistically) 15 mpg
then you have to have some over 30 if you are going to meet the
target. I also know that neither RR nor Ferrari has ever sold a car
that was rated at 30 mpg by the EPA.

The Gas Guzzler tax in only indirectly related to the CAFE standards.
You can meet the CAFE standard and still have some vehicles hit by the
GGT. Conversely, you can miss the CAFE target and yet not pay the
GGT.

And, to reiterate my original point (which you wish to dismiss with a
wave of your hand), you can always simply miss the CAFE standard and
just pay the tax. No car maker *has* to meet the CAFE standard and
there are a number that never have.

 

Mike is long on brash statements and short on explanations and
supporting evidence.

There was a time when he might have thrown out some BS explanation
only to be skewered with solid evidence refuting his outlandish claim.
Now he just acts like it is beneath his dignity to support any claim
he makes.

 

You have got to be joking. Did you ever hear of the VW Beetle? They
had sold 5 million of those in the US by 1970. Add in sales of Fiat,
Peugeot, Renault, Volvo, MG, Triumph, Saab, BMW, Mercedes and it must
add up to 7+ million European cars sold in the US in the 1960s.

Datsun didn't reach 1 million total sales until 1973. Toyota might
have been a little ahead of them. Honda sold virtually no cars in the
US prior to 1973. I don't think any other Japanese manufacturer sold
any cars in the US prior to 1970 except for Malcolm Briklin selling a
bunch of $600 Subarus in 1969.

Looking at the 1960s, I would estimate that European cars outsold
Japanese in the US by at least 5 to 1, maybe 10 to 1. Of course, all
imports combined rarely cracked 10% of the total market in that
decade.

Face it, Mike. All this talk about museum pieces is just a duck,
dodge and hide maneuver to avoid talking about the fact that Toyota
outsold Ford in July. Better get used to it. With Prudhoe Bay shut
down, those Explorers and Expeditions are looking mighty stupid.

 

That makes some sense, but why is off line preassembly more expensive than
on line? Wouldn't the lower parts costs make up for some of the higher
preassembly costs?

 

Those Explorers and Expeditions looked pretty stupid before gas prices
increased.....

Death traps on wheels....

 

What lower parts costs? Many of the parts needed to meet CAFE and emission
standards added significant 'costs' to build the vehicle. The extra cost of
preassembly have to do with extra man hours. Some preassembly, like a
competed door, can save money because it use to take more time to do on the
line, but that is not the case with the compete FWD assembly Few realize
the cost of building a car like the Lexus versions of Toyotas are only a
relative few hundreds dollars more, yet the cars sell for many thousands
more retail.



mike hunt

 

The same thing happened recently to the airline industry. For example,
Air Canada had huge demands placed on them by their unions. In the
end, the only union that wasn't willing to compromise was the pilots'
union... greedy greedy. The result? Creditor Protection and
near-bankruptcy, and the pilots wound up taking big wage cuts anyway.
Now a few years later, Air Canada is back to profitability in a large
part because they got the greedy, unreasonable union monkey off their
back.
I see the auto industry in north america suffering the same fate unless
their unions start compromising.

Unions have their place, but their purpose should be to protect their
workers' rights and safety, instead of inflating wages.

If she was part of the union, she didn't have a choice. Smart or not,
the union told her what she earned. If she wasn't part of the union,
she should be running GM, because obviously she is one tough
negotiator.

Tim

 

I agree that many of the parts needed to meet CAFE and emission standards
add significant costs to build the vehicle, but most of those parts would be
on the vehicle regardless of driveline configuration.

The extra cost of

Assuming that you mean that assembling a transaxle takes more man-hours than
a transmission/driveshaft/differential/axle, then I follow what you're
saying.

Few realize

True, as is the case with Lincoln versions of Fords; Cadillac versions of
Chevrolet/GMC; Mercedes Benz versions of Chryslers; Audi versions of
Volkswagens, and so on, although I do not see the relevance of this to the
discussion of FWD vs. RWD.

 

Actually, this is a result of deregulation and competitioin, at least in the
US.

The wages that many airline emploees are getting are relatively low. A lot
of retired pilots are getting very little in pensions, compared to what they
were promised, because of the bankruptcy that the airlines went through. The
pension are now run by the US Gov't. (as a result of the bankruptcy) and
they are capped at low values, in part because the pilots retired at 60, the
oldest pilots are allowed to fly (at least in the cabins). In addition, a
lot of flight attendents and other airline employees are working longer
hours.

The airlines without unions have mostly done better.

I would call someone who makes $100k per year cleaning pretty smart. That's
more than teachers get almost everywhere. Heck, that is more than a lot of
doctors.

Jeff

 

You're still too much a GM apologist because I've seen a case study
showing that if GM had Toyota's production efficiency - without any
changes in its labor cost structure, GM would have been profitable
every year. That's not to say that labor, health care, and pension
costs are huge burdens, but even if those costs were zero GM would
still be losing market share and producing bad designs that look like
more like furniture or boom boxes than like motor vehicles.

 

That's impossible during incessant masturbation. He's aided by Car
Toons and Highlights magazines.

 

Among Wagoner of GM, Ford of Ford, and Cho of Toyota, Cho is the most
of an outsider, being a lawyer and an ethnic Korean, because few
Japanese industrialists are lawyers, and ethnic Koreans are treated as
badly in Japan as blacks and Jews were in the U.S. several decades ago.
Cho also has the most production experience, by far.

 

Kind of like a top end Chev vs the base model EH!