Why cant Toyota or Honda make a car that drives just like a BMW?

On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 19:02:46 -0500, "Mark Klebanoff"

snip

They're less expensive, but for how long? They are so attractively
priced that I just bought an '03 Accord, but that price is possible
because for several years the Japanese government has been working
hard at keeping the Yen cheap compared to the US$. They do that
precisely to remain competitive in the biggest economy in the world,
the United States, while they try desperately to pull themselves out
of a decade-long recession. Unfortunately for all concerned, there's
a definite limit to how long they can continue to pull off this trick.
With the ever-increasing rate at which dollars are flowing out of the
US, the currency market for dollars cannot stay hot forever. Sooner
or later, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, and especially China, are going to
have to allow their currency to float up relative to the dollar. Some
experts predict that this pretty much has to happen in the next 3-5
years, and when it does, it's not going to be pretty -- for anyone
anywhere.

Buy your Japanese cars now. This is probably not going to last
forever. In five years the big automotive conundrum for most of us
may be trying to figure out whether we're going to buy the Cavalier or
the Grand Am. Or maybe those Hondas built in Marysville, Ohio, are
going to be made nearly completely out of American-made parts. Who
knows?
Ron

 

I agree. I am a fan of BMW but think they are over-priced. Additionally, I
never found the BMWs to be exceptionally beautiful. They are elegant but
so are the Japanese cars.

I believe that look of a car is very subjective for the person looking at
it. In America, we have a huge population who are fan of European stuffs.
Otherwise, Japanese cars would make better business in this country.

I often find it even surprising that Japanese cars are often taken by some
people with anti-American sentiment even though they are built here now.
For example, my all 3 cars so far were ford. However, when I decided to
buy a Sienna for family because of their reliability and cool features,
some people around me were not feeling happy that I selected a Japanese
car.

------------------------------------------------------
"Essentially, nobilities are foolishness, but if I were a citizen where
they prevail I would do my best to get a title, for the consideration it
furnishes--that is what we want. In Republics we strive for it with the
surest means we have--money." - Mark Twain's Notebook #40, (Jan. 1897-July
1900)

 

I think we should also keep in mind that this is Lexus's first attempt to
nip at the heels of the 3er. While BMW has had a 20 year + head start with
the 3er, Lexus is just testing the water's w/ the first generation of the
IS (not a bad effort for the rookie model), by the 2nd or 3rd complete
design change I think they will surpass the 3er. Toyota has a habit of
introducing a very good product in a new segment of the market, but usually
by the 2nd or 3rd generation they surpass the market leader...in terms of
the best product, if not volume. There are always exceptions, the T100,
Tundra taking aim at the Ford F150, but im sure they will get it right by
the next model re-design. BTW, Ford should really look out for the upcoming
Nissan Titan.

 

Someone once said, in a book about the history of Coca-Cola, that anyone
could make Coke. Sure, the recipe is all secret, etc.--but why? In
this day and age, so what if you had the recipe for Coke? You could
make it, and it would be a perfect copy--but would people buy it? You
aren't Coke. You don't have the history or the marketing muscle of Coke.

In other words, in no way would you be able to sell the exact same
product and do what Coke does.

Get the idea?

 

If I had about 45k to buy a car. The BMW would be near the bottom of my list.

Pars

 

I think we should also keep in mind that this is Lexus's first attempt to
nip at the heels of the 3er. While BMW has had a 20 year + head start with
the 3er, Lexus is just testing the water's w/ the first generation of the
IS (not a bad effort for the rookie model), by the 2nd or 3rd complete
design change I think they will surpass the 3er. Toyota has a habit of
introducing a very good product in a new segment of the market, but usually
by the 2nd or 3rd generation they surpass the market leader...in terms of
the best product, if not volume. There are always exceptions, the T100,
Tundra taking aim at the Ford F150, but im sure they will get it right by
the next model re-design. BTW, Ford should really look out for the upcoming
Nissan Titan.

 

I get the point you are trying to make, but saying a BMW is Coke and a Lexus
is Kmart Special 5cent soda does not fly. I would say BMW Vs. Lexus is
comparing Coke to 7up...different folks, different strokes. Plus, what's in
BMW's history that sets it apart from the likes of Toyota? If we were
talking about a Ferrari then you would have a valid point.



The simple purpose of my post was to find out the objective (mechanical)
reason why Toyota can't/won't build a car w/ the ride of a BMW, because that
is one of the main reasons people prefer to fork over thousands more for a
BMW over a Lexus..u know, it's the "Ultimate DRIVING Machine" according to
BMW and its fans.



I can't wait to see/drive the V8 IS...and when it looses its rice ricer
looks.

 

Same here.

45K buys an awfully cherry classic car. Probably get - well, pick
something other than a Firarri or simmilar.

 

I get the point you are trying to make, but saying a BMW is Coke and a Lexus
is Kmart Special 5cent soda does not fly. I would say BMW Vs. Lexus is
comparing Coke to 7up...different folks, different strokes. Plus, what's in
BMW's history that sets it apart from the likes of Toyota? If we were
talking about a Ferrari then you would have a valid point.

The simple purpose of my post was to find out the objective (mechanical)
reason why Toyota can't/won't build a car w/ the ride of a BMW, because that
is one of the main reasons people prefer to fork over thousands more for a
BMW over a Lexus..u know, it's the "Ultimate DRIVING Machine" according to
BMW and its fans.

I can't wait to see/drive the V8 IS...and when it looses its rice ricer
looks.

 

they pretty much are.

 

Without a doubt Italian cars are the most beautiful of all.
Unfortunately, FIAT really stood for "fix it again, tony" which is why
they're pretty much out of the market in the US.

I agree that the RX7 was a very attractive car when it was brought out
in th 70s, and I like the current one. The Miata's a knockoff of a
Lotus and Mazda actually got it right. But most Japanese cars look
either like the automotive equivalent of a transistor radio or (more
recently) like one of the cartoonists who draws animes changed jobs.

 

That's not what I said. The KMart Special soda isn't even close. It's
a Corolla of a soda.

The Lexus may be a BMW in every way, mechanically, but it is not a BMW.
And therein lies the distinction: the human psyche will refuse to
acknowledge it, by and large, because the human psyche is responding to
40 years of BMW marketing and the social perceptions that have come
about because of that.

Like I said, you can make a liquid that is, in all physical and chemical
properties, identical to what Coca Cola sells. But you can't use the
Coca Cola name. And without the Coca Cola name, and all that surrounds
it due to 100 years of marketing and being internalized by the public,
you can't do squat to compete.

So, you compete on a different level.

 

20 year start? Remember, Lexus is a brand. This is Toyota, after all.
They've been doing this a very long time, and have had plenty of
opportunities to "win the crown" from BMW. I keep hearing about how the next
generation this or that is finally going to trounce BMW. But it is yet to
happen. BMW doesn't sit still either, you know. Certainly the IS is a decent
car, but it was a blatant 3 copy, with a heavier, less powerful cast iron
engine rescued from the old Supra. That's sad, because Toyota has better
engines than this, but felt compelled to copy BMW's I6. Nissan didn't make
the same mistake with the G35, and has come much closer to BMW's performance
level. The IS is probably on par with the 3 series, except that it's the old
E36 3 series that was discontinued in 99.
The IS interior and exterior styling are in the "boy racer" mode (a big
mistake IMO), and there's no coupe. Where I live,they are sold well below
sticker price, but still rather scarce on the roads. Where most customers
are concerned, there's no contest.

 

I think you are living in a dream world. Posting to more than one NG is the
sign of a spammer or troll but here is one answer.

Why can't the Japs make a BMW - they can and so can the Chinese (BMW are opening
a factory out there)

How many BMWs are sold and to whome against the quantity of Toyotas, Hondas and
Nissans. Who buys the Lexus - Wannabe BMW and Mercedes drivers that have NEVER
driven one but bellieve the advertisments.

The Lexus is aimed at Cadillac owners that want something DIFFERENT and will buy
only US built iron (don't forget that BMW also build in the US, UK and China and
so does the Japs)

Don't kid yourself ----- A design is copyright.... The small pushrod Nissan
engines are based on the AUSTIN OHV engine from the A30/A35/Morris Minor from
1954 and aslo fitted to the Mini etc. Remember not only was BMWs first car a
rebadged Austin 7 - Nissan's was too. The later Nissan OHC engines were based
on the Mercedes OHC lumps as fitted to the cars from about '54 onwards. Take a
look - almost a clone as with the Nissan OHV engines.

BMW is a "driver's car" where as the Japs build cars to be replaced every 2
years (No old cars in Japan) the ride and look are everything as are the TOYS!

15 year old BMWs drive as new (when looked after) 15 year old Japs - not many
about but those that are need TLC and lots of rust repairs etc.

BTW have you seen what VW have done to Bently and that fake RR Hummer. I've seen
10 ton lorries take up less road space.

Hugh

Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it!

Hugh Gundersen


http://www.bognor-bill.co.uk
Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK

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B.Cozderiz
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PERORZ
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Hmmmm, that's interesting. There may be no old cars in Japan, but the
Japanese have built a reputation--very well earned--with cars that last
MUCH longer, on average, than any other type of car. And they do so
with MUCH less money poured into those cars over that time.

I'm sorry?

You said something about this thread coming from a troll or spammer, but
it's you who's the troll here.

 

"The IS interior and exterior styling are in the "boy racer" mode (a big
mistake IMO)"

100% agreed, that is the IS300's achilles heel, and is exactly why I decided
against purchasing this model.

 

Excuse me? Aimed at Cadillac owners? Have you seen the newest pieces of
crap that Cadillac is selling lately? The CTS looks like a cross between
the Apache helicopter and the stealth fighter, nothing but straight panels.
What happened to the idea of European styling and flair? Next to the
Pontiac Aztech, it's the ugliest freaking car on the road. I can not
imagine that Lexus is in any way competing with the brain-dead folks who are
buying crappo Cadillac, as it's more an affair of the heart for them then of
the mind.

 

Well, I'm no fan of the CTS, but it seems to have found a following in the
states. It is different-whereas much of what Lexus is building strikes me as
"Mercedes Light".

 

You might want to keep in mind *who* was doing some of these designs.
The 507 is unquestionably a stunning design. The same guy (von
Goertz) later designed the original Nissan/Datsun 240Z. While I don't
remember who did the 328, the E9 and its E3 (sedans) stablemates were
both largely derived from the 1962 1600 with some great and simple
touches from Michelotti (the 1600 was originally designed without the
kidney grilles that he added - and that we still see). IIRC, some of
the E9 period rooflines came from Pininfarina. [Again off the top of
my head,] so did the '72 Turbo showcar/M1 design which I think is
still great. I'd agree with your assessment of European vs. Japanese
designers.

Here's where we part ways for two reasons. BMW's 'flame surfacing' is
a product of Chris Bangle's warped mind and he is (to my chagrin)
American. I'm hoping to get into an E39 some time soon so I don't
have to drive one of those Godawful 'Banglized' 5ers anytime in the
next decade or so.

Yup. See above as well. And I love Jaguars ... especially the
'saloons'.

 

The other day, I sat in a Dodge SRT4 (look it up; it's a seriously
hotted-up Neon, but Dodge doesn't badge it as such). It felt *great*
sitting still. Like showroom stock race cars I've driven. Then, I
arranged for a ride ...

A lot like that, only he wasn't driving; I was. It has a suspension
more tuned than the racing Neon ACRs and more than some stock class
race cars I've driven. It has about 65 more horsepower run through a
turbo and a cat, but *no* mufflers. It has a helluva lot better
shifter (the brightest spot). It screams and it sticks (autocross
gumball Goodriches on those 17-inch wheels) and reminds me of nothing
so much as an old 5-liter Mustang. That is, 'crude but effective'.
My wife was starting to get motion sickness from a 5-mile ride even
though I was trying to 'pussyfoot' the thing to mask its nature - and
this is a woman who's ridden the right seat with me in an Alfa 155
down the Amalfi Drive (a 4-hour autocross course!) without losing her
lunch. It was insufferably loud, especially in the back seat. So I'm
not gettin' one. But it was an enlightening experience, considering
that she's driving a Jaguar X-Type 3.0 Sport 5-speed that can do
nearly everything the Dodge could do with an almost infinite amount
*more* refinement. I was reminded why I've been driving BMWs and
Audis ever since I got out of Toyotas into a 2002 some 20 years ago.
While my '87 FX-16 was a lotta fun, it still lacked 'something' that
the BMWs (at least up through the E28/E30) all have - an
unquantifiable 'character'.

Actually, I've found that if you want to buy ego inflation, a Jaguar
does it a helluva lot better - and cheaper - than a BMW. It's crazy
how impressed average people are with our 'entry-level' X-Type (Yeah;
it really *is* just a *very nice* AWD Ford Mondeo/Contour.) compared
to *any* BMW I've ever had. It still comes down to your essential
(but slightly corrected) conclusion: "Oh; nice Lexus." "That BMW is
the *second* coolest car on the block!" "Look! There's a red
*Jag*!!" ;^)