Why cant Toyota or Honda make a car that drives just like a BMW?

Good old ELMo stepped on his shagnasty this time...
My 19 yr old e28, this years expenses:
2 relays and a new muffler, 19 bux and change for those bad boys...plus
about $300 for the muffler which didn't include the $60 to install.
talk about expensive...man I tell you, what's this world coming to eh?
btw that was the original 19 year old muffler and relays.
tell you what ELMO, I'll take your rice rocket on anytime anywhere with
my 19 yr old POS BMW...

 

Some guesses:
* Copyrights
* Patents
* Making copies puts the copyist in a bad spot--they're seen as
imitators
* Honda and Toyota already make good cars--no need to copy
* Copiers will usually be a generation behind what they copy
* Might not be much market for copies--I probably wouldn't buy one
* Just copying something doesn't tell you why something is designed a
particular way, so a copy might superficially be identical to the
original, yet not function identically
* Smarter to come up with your own cars and build your success that
way
Company that designed the original product might pursue legal action
against copiers
* If the original is a bad car or lemon, that image will also
overshadow the copies. The maker of the copy is dependent on the
success and popularity of the original.
* In many cases, the sort of people who want the original are willing
to pay the $$$ to pay for something exclusive. IOW, they wouldn't buy
the originals.
* BMW might take legal action against copiers, the same way (for
example) Rolex and other companies with established brand names pursue
sellers of fake Rolexes.

BTW, if you look at the Canon and Nikon 35mm rangefinder cameras of
the 1950's, these companies built their images partly by making
high-quality cameras that were similar to, yet cost less than the
German Contax and Leica brands. (The Japanese lens mounts also were
identical to those on pricey Leica lenses.) Canon and Nikon partly
built their success on cameras that were to some extent, copies, but
their real and lasting success comes from building their own designs,
not copies.

There actually isn't a huge amount of originality in car designs.
Almost all cars are roughly the same. Making a copy would mean that
the copy would always be seen as second best.

BTW, there are cars that actually are copies. For examples, several
companies have built copies of the Ford-powered Cobra sports cars from
the 1960's. But I can't think of a big maker that's ever made a true
copy. If any big maker has ever done that, it must have been a long,
long time ago.

There are cars that roughly copy the overall idea of another car. For
example, after the Chrysler minivans became popular, that concept was
widely imitated. Same goes for the original Austin Mini, designed by
Sir Alec Issigonis.

See above.

I know the so-called Chapman strut (named after Colin Chapman, Lotus
founder) is basically a common front suspension idea, just moved the
rear wheels.

I think Toyota is doing just fine and I think it's unlikely they would
ever want to make an obvious copy. I think it's much smarter to build
a competitive car than to make a copy.

BTW, for 20+ years Japanese makers in the home market have made cars
that have a retro look and feel. These cars aren't copies of old cars,
but they have an "inspired by" sort of look. In the US, we've seen a
few examples of new cars with retro looks:

Chrysler PT Cruiser
Ford Thunderbird
VW New Beetle

We'll probably be seeing more retro cars from US makers in the next
few years.

 

About 4 years after I bought the Prizm (1990 model), I stopped by the
Chevrolet - Geo parts department to buy an antenna. I overheard a
conversation between a salesman and a service writer that went "When
you sell a Prizm, they never come back for service...." "But you
sell a Cavalier and those people are back every couple of months."
--

~~Philip

"Never let school interfere
with your education - Mark Twain"

 

do you ever think that since a civic is half or more less expensive than a
BMW that may have some factor in the "ratio"

 

Now we know you are a complete wanker.

What you are referring to is the "McPhearson" Strut. Designed by a production
worker on the FORD of England production line in 1952 or there abouts and first
used in the 107E side valve 1172cc monocoque bodies Prefect and Popular models
and subsequently used on all the FORD (UK & D) production cars. Later licensed
and used by most other car makers until the patent rights ran out and now
everybody is using it.

Hugh

Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it!

Hugh Gundersen


http://www.bognor-bill.co.uk
Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK

-------------------------------------------------
Vyisder Asmeni
Orsisarsis Asderisorsis.
B.Cozderiz
Vunarz
PERORZ
-------------------------------------------------

 

Most of this shit are cars that were over engineered. Now the real engineers
have got at them and the bean counters and they are made to last a few years.

As an example the design life of the Austin Metro (fancy square mini derivative
in UK) was 8 years and about 90% that survived accidents fell apart at that
point and the other 9% lasted another 2 - 5 whilst the odd 1% left are still
lurking in a garage or barn somewhere waiting to be discovered in 10 years
time.....

Hugh

Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it!

Hugh Gundersen


http://www.bognor-bill.co.uk
Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK

-------------------------------------------------
Vyisder Asmeni
Orsisarsis Asderisorsis.
B.Cozderiz
Vunarz
PERORZ
-------------------------------------------------

 

Honda's top management including the CEO have had a racing background, it
teaches the employees to work under pressure and as a team. I think even
till this day thay have the same phil, each CEO and managers have to spend
some time in there racing program.

 

Perhaps intelligence is also being able to copy the information
accurately. 8

"I also wrote speeches for Earle S. MacPherson, inventor of the
MacPherson Strut front suspension, who was Ford VP-Engineering in
those days."

-- Larry

 

There's more to it than that, top poster. Your decision to top-post
means that you have decided not to have a discussion with me and
respond to the points that I made. You just wanted to blather-away at
the top.

 

I don't necessarily agree. There are many froums where it is customary to
read a post, and frame the reply in a manner that covers the general theme
all at one time instead of addressing each point as it is made. This sort of
reply works best in a top-post format.

It is not right to force bottom posting "just because." Especially, if the
errant top poster trims the rest of the original post so everybody doesn't
have to scroll down pages and pages only to find that there is no further
discussion taking place.

 

Some in the NG's just like to bash particular brands, is all.
To many people judge cars by the one used car they once owned. If
you buy a new car and do the necessary maintenance they will all
last a long time. All of the old cars I own I bought new, except
the '41 Continental Convertible. It was left to me by
a fellow collector, back in the seventies, that bought it new.
The key is do the proper maintenance!


mike hunt

 

You need to get examined by your doctor for alzhiemers.

 

Maybe not for much longer. The Wall St. Journal reported world-wide
sales for major auto companies and Toyota was just a smidgen behind
Ford and gaining rapidly.

 

Correct...now stop being a mark.

Really? Who's doing that?

Not entirely true.

If you are an "abusive" driver, extra maintenance will be required outside
the "regular maintenance".

And here's another point dipstick...my Honda has 139k miles on it, and my
Chevy truck has 209k. Both have been meticulously maintained, however, the
Chevy (by the point it was at 139k) had had 3 starters, 2 exhausts, 1
generator, 2 batteries, 2 sets of brakes, 2 water pumps, a distributor, and
2 fuel injectors...and *all* of these parts failed during operation.

The Honda you ask? 1 exhaust, 1 battery, 1 set of brakes, and 1 scheduled
timing belt and water pump...that's it!

So your old statements that cars will "last a long time" is subjective.
Sure...they could...but some will be at a MUCH higher cost, and it has been
my unbiased experience, that Japanese car fair MUCH better than their
American counter parts...and that's a fact!

 

(flame snipped)

Thanks for the correction; that name slipped my mind. Speaking of
corrections, it's spelled "McPherson," I think. But you agree that the
Chapman strut is what I describe above, right?

See the other post from pltrgyst for some other comments.

 

What parallel universe are you from? The daily news is rife with
stories of avarice, greed, and corruption in coporate America.
Companies raiding retirement plans for capital, mismanagement of
401K's, firing/laying off workers with no advance notice, dropping
group medical plans ...the list is endless. This is the country were
the business ethic says its acceptable to shoot your employees,
ferchrysakes! Sure, all those policies you listed were common in the
properous 90's. That was because companies were so desperate for
talent, they initiated a whole range of bennies to attract workers.
Now that the sleigh ride is over, it's back to cutting the throat of
the common worker.

The working class will always be expendable in the business equation.
Let's lay off thousands of loyal, longtime, workers to ship production
offshore so management can retain their bonuses. Let's lay off
thousands of the most productive workers in the world and replace them
with illegal immigrants so we can pay them chicken feed. Let's lay
off thousands of older, experienced, workers and replace them with
clueless 20-somethings so we can cut health insurance costs. Let's
contribute millions to scumbag politicians to pass crippling
workplace safety and worker's protection legislation. YOUR statement
is wrong. The company, read upper management, will screw the
employee in a hearbeat, and then pat themselves on the back at their
good judgement.

nb

 

Dizzy

Probably because you are most of the time.

Top posting!

I have made all the points and if you can only read between the lines I suggest
you go back to school and stop playing with toy cars.

Hugh

BTW At least I use my real name and you have a god idea where I come from. I am
very experienced in dealing with tossers as I do it all day at a school so I
know school boy dreams when I hear them.

Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it!

Hugh Gundersen


http://www.bognor-bill.co.uk
Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK

-------------------------------------------------
Vyisder Asmeni
Orsisarsis Asderisorsis.
B.Cozderiz
Vunarz
PERORZ
-------------------------------------------------

 

Just goes to show that Earl McPhearson couldn't write his own speeches just like
today's politicians! We have those too.

Hugh

Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it!

Hugh Gundersen


http://www.bognor-bill.co.uk
Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK

-------------------------------------------------
Vyisder Asmeni
Orsisarsis Asderisorsis.
B.Cozderiz
Vunarz
PERORZ
-------------------------------------------------

 

No documented evidence. Reality speaks for itself. As a lifelong
mechanic, I've seen the evidence first hand.

Granted, Toyota makes very reliable powerplant/drivetrains. This is
because Toyota tends toward beefy, understressed, designs. Their
perfomance offerings, OTOH, are junk. Sure, a Toyota will run
forever, but it'll be a dilapidated heap going down the road. Overall,
Hondas are much more reliable. Just yesterday, I was commenting to
the parts man how the air conditioning on my '87 Honda still works,
good as new. Never been worked on. He said the same thing about his
'82!!

Very true. I don't try and define myself by the car I drive. To me,
a car is just a tool. Those who do are not likely to keep a car for
any length of time, so, to them, longevity is not usually a criteria.

And it was the Japanese who forced this. Until the Japanese car
industry came of age, many other car makers where turning out crap.
The US industry was in serious trouble in the face of Japanese
competition, and were forced to improve reliability or perish. Some
car makers did. The entire British motor industry almost died forever
in the face of the Japanese onslaught. Granted, the German stuff
didn't flag. In fact, I think that was the height of German quality,
the 60's and 70's. But, then the Japanese car industry targeted the
luxury market and German stuff cheapened, in order to compete. Now,
with all this world trade stuff, the whole industry has homoginized,
somewhat, into a pretty level playing field, with improved overall
reliability of all car makers being one of the great benefits.

nb

 

No - now we know you are a poseur.

The *MacPherson* strut is a uniquely front suspension assembly... since it
incorporatetes the upper steering pivot into the top of the damper and the
damper turns with the steering. The damper is also a structural, stressed
part of the suspension - IOW there is no upper control arm for longitudinal
and lateral location. While there are good and bad implementations, it's a
shitty system which is inflexible in choice of performance design
parameters, with many inherent in-built flaws which have to be worked
around with compromises. Because of the wear patterns in many
implementations, it tends to degrade quickly, often becoming intolerable
quite early in the life of the car. It also tends to be expensive to
repair. It should have stayed in the Popular, Prefect... where it belongs,
as a cheap solution.

When you take just the suspension part, without the steering aspects and
implement a rear suspension with basically no upper control arm, there
*are* car mfrs who call it a MacPherson strut rear but that's wrong for
obvous reasons. Chapman was the first to use such a system in one of his
racing cars and it's more properly known as a Chapman strut. The story
about Enzo Ferrari shaking his head in disbelief when he first saw the
Chapman design is well known.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??