Why Not Let Honda Et Al. Take Over GM?

Hey, are you one of them thar' robot monkeys walding the unemployment
pavement?

JT

 

"Alfred P. Sloan". Look it up. "Book keeper type" has nothing to do with
the problem. Alfred Sloan was the consummate bookkeeper, and he drove GM to
heights they've never seen since.

You want to know what's really wrong with the domestics? Here's another
name to consider: Caterpillar. That would be the US construction equipment
company.

The domestic automakers committed delayed suicide in the '80s when they
caved in to exorbitant unions demands. Frantic to keep the lines running in
the face of Japanese competition, domestic automaker management said we'll
give you everything you want, just get back to work. And the government
agreed to guarantee those demands.

Caterpillar alone refused to knuckle under to those very same union demands
at that very same time. And the union struck. I still remember seeing Cat
workers trudging the picket line month after month after month, as the
months seemed to stretch into years. I still remember wondering if Cat
would even survive as a company. Eventually, the union caved. Not only did
Cat survive, Caterpillar today has legacy costs not any different from any
of its foreign competitors, and remains highly competitive (and profitable)
in its markets.

Bad management + bad government = bad mix.

 

"Alfred P. Sloan". Look it up. "Book keeper type" has nothing to do with
the problem. Alfred Sloan was the consummate bookkeeper, and he drove GM to
heights they've never seen since.

You want to know what's really wrong with the domestics? Here's another
name to consider: Caterpillar. That would be the US construction equipment
company.

The domestic automakers committed delayed suicide in the '80s when they
caved in to exorbitant unions demands. Frantic to keep the lines running in
the face of Japanese competition, domestic automaker management said we'll
give you everything you want, just get back to work. And the government
agreed to guarantee those demands.

Caterpillar alone refused to knuckle under to those very same union demands
at that very same time. And the union struck. I still remember seeing Cat
workers trudging the picket line month after month after month, as the
months seemed to stretch into years. I still remember wondering if Cat
would even survive as a company. Eventually, the union caved. Not only did
Cat survive, Caterpillar today has legacy costs not any different from any
of its foreign competitors, and remains highly competitive (and profitable)
in its markets.

Bad management + bad government = bad mix.

 

You and your pal the ignorant snot are in way over your heads.

 

You and your pal the ignorant snot are in way over your heads.

 

Hi,
Any way, this weeks TIME mag. has an article.

 

Hi,
Any way, this weeks TIME mag. has an article.

 

///clipped nonsense///>

Finally!!!! At long last!!!! Someone who understands the problems... Bad
management, greedy unions, and bad government.... Add all together and you
get a situation like that in which the U.S. auto industry finds itself
today. I heard it said that current union wages paid by the U.S. companies
is around $78/hour compared to Honda, Toyota etc. (in their U.S. plants) pay
around $45/hour to a comparable position. Management has made some
horrendously stupid decisions over the past 20 years, and as far as the
government involvement - "The scariest words in the English language are
""I'm from the government and I'm here to help""" - Ronald Wilson
Reagan.....

DaveD

 

///clipped nonsense///>

Finally!!!! At long last!!!! Someone who understands the problems... Bad
management, greedy unions, and bad government.... Add all together and you
get a situation like that in which the U.S. auto industry finds itself
today. I heard it said that current union wages paid by the U.S. companies
is around $78/hour compared to Honda, Toyota etc. (in their U.S. plants) pay
around $45/hour to a comparable position. Management has made some
horrendously stupid decisions over the past 20 years, and as far as the
government involvement - "The scariest words in the English language are
""I'm from the government and I'm here to help""" - Ronald Wilson
Reagan.....

DaveD

 

Guys, Guys

Blame me - It was all my fault, now shake hands and go back to your corners
for the next debate ;-)

 

Guys, Guys

Blame me - It was all my fault, now shake hands and go back to your corners
for the next debate ;-)

 

It seems so odd to me to read this attitude with proper punctuation.

RFT!!!
Dave Kelsen
01 Taffeta White Odyssey EX V6 4AT
03 Noble Green Accord LX Sedan I4 5AT
04 San Marino Red Accord EX-Navi Coupe V6 6MT

 

It seems so odd to me to read this attitude with proper punctuation.

RFT!!!
Dave Kelsen
01 Taffeta White Odyssey EX V6 4AT
03 Noble Green Accord LX Sedan I4 5AT
04 San Marino Red Accord EX-Navi Coupe V6 6MT

 

I suppose the alternative to not caving in would be risking
going under during the ensuing work stoppage. This might
have been too big a risk for shareholders (among others) to
stomach.

There is a pension guarantee for all U.S. workers who work
for certain corporations. This guarantee is not unique to
the auto industry. There is also unemployment insurance,
also not unique to the auto industry. I am unaware of any
guarantees.

These costs (the pension yada guarantee and unemployment
insurance) are one reason many could argue a so-called
bailout would be cheaper.

But I think it is valid to say that putting all these people
out of work (not just auto workers but various support
industries) may very well drive the U.S. into an economic
depression. Everyone will then suffer. To me it makes sense
to try to broker a deal with Honda, Toyota et al. so these
former Big 3 workers at least have some kind of job. I do
not care about their pay cut; I do not think their lower
wages would be all that detrimental to the economy as a
whole.

I do not want government running Honda or Toyota etc. I
would expect simply that the gov make an offer to Honda,
Toyota etc. Then H, T, etc. can take it or leave it.

 

I suppose the alternative to not caving in would be risking
going under during the ensuing work stoppage. This might
have been too big a risk for shareholders (among others) to
stomach.

There is a pension guarantee for all U.S. workers who work
for certain corporations. This guarantee is not unique to
the auto industry. There is also unemployment insurance,
also not unique to the auto industry. I am unaware of any
guarantees.

These costs (the pension yada guarantee and unemployment
insurance) are one reason many could argue a so-called
bailout would be cheaper.

But I think it is valid to say that putting all these people
out of work (not just auto workers but various support
industries) may very well drive the U.S. into an economic
depression. Everyone will then suffer. To me it makes sense
to try to broker a deal with Honda, Toyota et al. so these
former Big 3 workers at least have some kind of job. I do
not care about their pay cut; I do not think their lower
wages would be all that detrimental to the economy as a
whole.

I do not want government running Honda or Toyota etc. I
would expect simply that the gov make an offer to Honda,
Toyota etc. Then H, T, etc. can take it or leave it.

 

Unemployment insurance pays you about 60% of your wages for 26 weeks,
UAW job banks are another story. This is the type of thing that has
people pissed off about bailing out the auto industry.

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/17/A01-351179.htm

"Ken Pool is making good money. On weekdays, he shows up at 7 a.m. at
Ford Motor Co.'s Michigan Truck Plant in Wayne, signs in, and then
starts working -- on a crossword puzzle. Pool hates the monotony, but
the pay is good: more than $31 an hour, plus benefits.
"We just go in and play crossword puzzles, watch videos that someone
brings in or read the newspaper," he says. "Otherwise, I've just
sat."
Pool is one of more than 12,000 American autoworkers who, instead of
installing windshields or bending sheet metal, spend their days
counting the hours in a jobs bank set up by Detroit automakers and
Delphi Corp. as part of an extraordinary job security agreement with
the United Auto Workers union.
The jobs bank programs were the price the industry paid in the 1980s
to win UAW support for controversial efforts to boost productivity
through increased automation and more flexible manufacturing."

 

Unemployment insurance pays you about 60% of your wages for 26 weeks,
UAW job banks are another story. This is the type of thing that has
people pissed off about bailing out the auto industry.

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/17/A01-351179.htm

"Ken Pool is making good money. On weekdays, he shows up at 7 a.m. at
Ford Motor Co.'s Michigan Truck Plant in Wayne, signs in, and then
starts working -- on a crossword puzzle. Pool hates the monotony, but
the pay is good: more than $31 an hour, plus benefits.
"We just go in and play crossword puzzles, watch videos that someone
brings in or read the newspaper," he says. "Otherwise, I've just
sat."
Pool is one of more than 12,000 American autoworkers who, instead of
installing windshields or bending sheet metal, spend their days
counting the hours in a jobs bank set up by Detroit automakers and
Delphi Corp. as part of an extraordinary job security agreement with
the United Auto Workers union.
The jobs bank programs were the price the industry paid in the 1980s
to win UAW support for controversial efforts to boost productivity
through increased automation and more flexible manufacturing."

 

Unemployment insurance pays you about 60% of your wages for
26 weeks,
UAW job banks are another story. This is the type of thing
that has
people pissed off about bailing out the auto industry.
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/17/A01-351179.htm
-----

Good post. Of course it is disgusting. So are CEO salaries.
But I do not think being "pissed off" does anything to help
decide among the remaining logical choices. The union and
the corporations made a deal. It is a legal fact that can be
undone only in certain ways. I want to deal in facts, not
emotion. So I think for one this job bank could be used as a
huge negotiating chip. Government says: You want a bailout?
Then union, no more job bank.

I still would prefer making a sweetened deal with Honda and
Toyota et al. The gov could even say, "Detroit's Big 3 are
going under. Honda, Toyota, et al.: Market forces say you
will have to make up the demand. Here is a loan to build
more factories in the U.S."

 

Unemployment insurance pays you about 60% of your wages for
26 weeks,
UAW job banks are another story. This is the type of thing
that has
people pissed off about bailing out the auto industry.
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/17/A01-351179.htm
-----

Good post. Of course it is disgusting. So are CEO salaries.
But I do not think being "pissed off" does anything to help
decide among the remaining logical choices. The union and
the corporations made a deal. It is a legal fact that can be
undone only in certain ways. I want to deal in facts, not
emotion. So I think for one this job bank could be used as a
huge negotiating chip. Government says: You want a bailout?
Then union, no more job bank.

I still would prefer making a sweetened deal with Honda and
Toyota et al. The gov could even say, "Detroit's Big 3 are
going under. Honda, Toyota, et al.: Market forces say you
will have to make up the demand. Here is a loan to build
more factories in the U.S."

 

siskuwihane wrote

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/17/A01-351179.htmRead-o, update and clarification. The above cited 2005article said the UAW and the Big 3 could re-negotiate thejob bank in 2007. The Nov 2008 article linked below saysthat today "there are about 1,000 union members in jobsbanks, which means that it's 'almost gone' compared to the12k of about three years ago" blah blah.http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/uaw-job-bank-not-gone-yet-but-its-almost-gone/