Yaris, Scion xD, Honda Fit - no water temp gauge

Alongside WITH such engineers? 10 years.[/QUOTE]

So you actually haven't done it yourself. Try it some time in a large US
corporation where you are over-ridden by marketing, finance, and
industrial design. Where you are told to use the crappy lowest cost
supplier (then blamed when they can't make a decent part even though the
vendor they replaced could do it in their sleep). Where you are forced
to compromise the function and durability for form so the industrial
designer can have the exact look he drew up even though it's beyond
current manufacturing technology or the finance people don't want to pay
for it. Better yet, being held to some dumb ass marketing dimensional
standard that hopelessly compromises the product. There's nothing like
stuffing 10lbs into a 2lb bag.

 

The point remains, the last Wabbit was made....3 minutes ago, not in
1984.

And your grasp of the ACTUAL world outside your lab, Dr. Brown, is weak.  
The fact remains, people don't want the gauges, and the fact that cars
of all kinds and ages are driving around is proof that people don't need
the gauges.

The ditzy 16yo girl next door wouldn't know what to do with the gauges
(except complain about them) if she had them.  Hell, she might not even
complain, 'cuz she wouldn't even know they were there--she's too busy
doing other things.[/QUOTE]

*Knowledgeable* people still want gauges, or something that provides
the same functionality as gauges. Thus if "most" people don't want
them that is a reflection on the consumer, not the product. If I see
a car with only a speedo and fuel gauge, that says to me that the
manufacturer is aiming that vehicle at consumers of appliances, not
knowledgeable car buyers, and I tend to look elsewhere.

nate

 

MARKETING companies market to the masses--which, in this country, are
the ignorant.

Gauges cost money. They're in the business to make profits, which means
selling goods, which means selling goods at prices the public wants to
pay.

Plainly, the market has spoken--and it's not full of knowledgeable
people who want gauges.

If you want gauges, put them on yourself. In the meantime, the
carmakers will make what sells. Period. That's my whole point.
Whether a gauge is useful or not in terms of providing any given
individual, is meaningless. What's meaningful is what sells in mass
quantities. Period.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: let the three knowledgeable
people who want the gauges, install the gauges for themselves. In the
meantime, the carmakers will market to Daddy's ditzy 16yo daughter by
providing something she wants and not providing something she doesn't
want. She doesn't want to spend money on gauges she'll never
understand, and the carmakers don't want to spend money on gauges
that'll never be used.

She represents the car buying public. The engineer types who want
gauges do NOT represent the car buying public. I don't know how to make
that clearer.

 

So you actually haven't done it yourself. Try it some time in a large US
corporation where you are over-ridden by marketing, finance, and
industrial design.[/QUOTE]

That's exactly my environment.

I don't need lectured on this one bit.

 

I understand your point. The main reason I've kept posting to this
thread is not to try to refute your assertion that most consumers are
ignorant - I'd probably have a hard time with that. The assertion
that another poster - not you - made that the gauges actually provide
no useful information to the operator is what I have a problem with.
They most certainly *do* provide useful information - whether or not
the operator pays attention to them.

I'll just keep buying cars that came properly equipped from the
factory (with rare exceptions, like the F-150, to which I did in fact
add my own gauges) and if the mfgrs. aren't marketing their vehicles
towards me, well I won't buy their products.

I would think, though, that even to an ignorant consumer, the gauges
would be perceived as an "upscale" addition to any vehicle. Certainly
there are many fairly pedestrian vehicles that come with a tachometer
even with an automatic transmission, which is about the least useful
gauge possible for the 90+ percent of the people that will be driving
those vehicles who will never move the lever past "D."

nate

 

Well, not exactly. The Prius, for example, attracts geekheads who like
the Smart Key System nav/bluetooth, etc. It has zero instrumentation
(face it, it's a rolling computer--it takes care of itself and shuts
itself down if ever needed), yet most people who buy it consider its
features to be "upscale".

The typical Porsche/Corvette gold chain crowd expects gauges, but only
because the number of gauges is a factor in their perceived dick size.
They have no idea how to use the car AT ALL, let alone the gauges, but
hey--when you have $100K to spend on a boutique car that's used for the
express purpose of showing everyone that you have $100K to spend on a
car, it had better look like more than a Prius.

"Upscale" changes definition with car category.

 

Like my minivan. Sho 'nuff. And I didn't need the tach to know that
the engine was revving up and down at idle, and to take it in to have it
looked at (it was the idle air control valve).

 

That's exactly my environment.

I don't need lectured on this one bit.
[/QUOTE]
And yet you argue the exact opposite.

 

I thought those hybrids could call up all sorts of stuff on those
displays they put in them.... especially the real time mpg calculator...

Um, the Germans actually put the gauges in to be used in the home
market.

 

Well, there's two kinds of Prius buyers. The ones you mention, who I
assume simply trust that Toyota took care of the software correctly.
That's a dangerous assumption, but IMO much less so than, say,
assuming the same of GM or Ford. The other type are the people who
simply buy them because they want to be ecologically correct, and
don't know a thing about cars anyway. (I try to tell those people
that they should either a) simply keep their existing car or b) if
their existing car is well and truly worn out, they might want to try
a nice VW TDI instead, but they generally don't listen. Such is life,
I guess.)

HEY!!!! there was shrinkage, dammit!

FWIW, it pleases me to believe that Porsche is aiming its vehicles at
the customers who actually do know how to drive, and if their vehicles
appeal to others, so much the better. (maybe I'm engaging in a little
harmless denial, there, but the fact remains that for the most part
Porsches do have fairly decent instrumentation.) I do know personally
at least one person that races a Corvette as well. I think that if
either marque lost credibility with real racers and gearheads, that
the gold-chain crowd would gradually drift away as well, as "racing
heritage" is important to that kind of person.

From a historical perspective, it would appear that consumers actually
did want gauges at one point in time, or at least mfgrs. thought they
did. Studebaker, for instance, flirted with using idiot lights on its
sedan/Lark models at least twice (the C-K models, a.k.a. "Hawk"
series, a.k.a. "sports coupes" always had full instruments) but always
came back to real gauges after a couple of years.

nate

 

Um, what is so difficult to understand as to basic guages? Even with
today's dumbed down public, oil pressure, coolant temperature, etc can
be clearly marked as to acceptible ranges.

Again, if gages are marked with an acceptable range, any reading below
that can be addressed before major damage occurs.

Usually, an oil pump...

I haven't seen many (if any) modern Honda engines for less than $1,000
and that doesn't include labor for a changeout.

JT

 

See my comment elsewhere in this thread. A properly crafted computer
program can do a much better job watching a MUCH wider range of
measurements and integrate those measurements into a program that knows
what to look out for.

It is doing more things faster than the human could do.
[/QUOTE]


The only problem with this thinking is that someone that monitors a
basic set of gages will take action vs. the 'puter saying "check motah"
will likely result in the driver ignoring it, (since the same warning
can also point to insignificant errors), and driving the car to total
failure... Especially females. (Not you Elle).

Sad testimony to what we have achieved as a society.

JT

 

Isn't this thread dead yet?

Gauges should always be an option on a car, and they should be REAL gauges,
not idiot gauges.

 

Exactly. The public (herds of sheeple) have been dumbed down so badly
that they must be spoon fed in nearly every facet of life.

For me, I own no car with a "Check Motah" light. WTF??? Give me a clue!

And there lies the Achilles heel of simplified notifications. "You Have
a Problem." OK, but WTF is it? Is it something I can ignore for the
immediate time frame and take care of it later or is it a bearing
crunching oil starvation coolant overheating emergency? Beats me until
I smell sumptin' burning or the damned thing just quits.

Bingo!

JT

 

Oh bullshit!

All engines operate in nearly identical OP, CT ranges.

Oh sure, a sixteen year old with the stereo blasting and yakking with
her friends is going to listen for a fan to turn on.



JT

 

Nate, Yer' wastin' your time here.

Anyone with two brain cells to rub together knows that a spun bearing,
if ignored, will quickly lead to.. well, catastrophic results.

Ya gotta limit your discussions to folks with at least half open minds...

JT

(Who always caught spun bearings *before* major damage occurred)

 

You plainly don't understand marketing and sales.

You're asking the wrong question. The CORRECT question to ask is this:
why should every car be built with the 747 cockpit? Let the THREE
PEOPLE in the world who care about that, add whatever they want.

In the meantime, the REAL WORLD marketing will keep the cost of the
vehicle down by NOT adding the 747 dashboard that requires flight school
and years of training to use.

It's easier to put that years of training into a proper computer program
which will decide, properly, when something needs tended to. Design
that one time, spend the money one time, then the program can run at no
extra cost on every car that comes off the line.
[/QUOTE]


Elmo, I gotta take issue here.

For example, everyone should know the four basic functions of math;
addition, subtractionn, multiplication and division.

Likewise, everyone that has a driver's license should be aware of the
four basic functions to be monitored on any internal combustion engine;
gas remaining, electrical system status, oil pressure and coolant
temperature.

This is not rocket science by any means.

Geeeeeeeez,

JT

 

Uh, the "747" instrumentation is a stretch...

As I said before, EVERY has four functions that should be capable of
being monitored individualy... Remaining fuel, Coolant temperature,
Electrical system status and oil pressure.

All of which fall into the same basic parameters as well.

A 747 OTOH has a flight engineer to monitor them thar' gages most of
which are also computer driven these heeyah days.

JT

(Wondering just how dumb society has become)

 

Well worded Scott!

One probably shoul reap what they sow...

<G>
\
JT

 

Heh... I spent quite a number of years in the semiconductor equipment
manufacturing business, specifically new product transitions. I can
tell ya that there was NO industrial design! Form and Function, yes...
But "Fit," no way Jose... Takes too much time and cuts into profit.

The result, maintenance/repairs undertaken by the customer were a
nightmare. We stuffed 100 lbs into a 5 lb bag...

<G>

JT