Yaris, Scion xD, Honda Fit - no water temp gauge

It's true that, on average, females are more ignorant of
things electrical and mechanical. But in general, I think
the females are more willing to admit their ignorance. (Plus
society is easier on a female ignorant of cars.) I think
this means the females are more inclined to do something
meaningful when the CEL comes on. Males (not you nor anyone
here) OTOH can be overconfident--they'll second guess the
computer, say, and will drive the car to ruin.

Elle
"Don't drive like my brother." His car's low oil pressure
light came on. He continued to drive the car until the
engine seized and all he had left was a massive paperweight.

 

"One" is singular. "They" is plural.

One should reap what he sows.

 

Elmo, I gotta take issue here.

For example, everyone should know the four basic functions of math;
addition, subtractionn, multiplication and division.[/QUOTE]

"Should" is the operative word here.

But many DON'T--and it's certainly not a requirement for buying and
licensing a car for driving on public roads.

In fact, the sales staff at a dealership would tell you that it only
gets in the way of their goal--which is to get a signature on the bottom
line.

Same with gauges.

The buying public has spoken: it wants to "keep it real".

 

Shoot, even Nate's vaunted German engineering has brought us the BMW
engine without an oil dipstick, because the computer is taking care of
that for you.

I'm guessing the computer IS doing a better job of watching a bunch of
parameters than any driver could do.

Do we need the "check engine" light to light up green, yellow, and red
to indicate the severity of the issue? Yes. But that's a tweak to the
design, and is no reason to throw the entire design out.

 

Um, the Germans actually put the gauges in to be used in the home
market.[/QUOTE]

Does the home market BMW also get an oil dipstick? Or does the home
market suffer from a lack of that just like the US market does?

 

Does the home market BMW also get an oil dipstick? Or does the home
market suffer from a lack of that just like the US market does?[/QUOTE]

They stupidly did what you suggest and went to a computer controlled
gizmo for oil level.

 

They stupidly did what you suggest and went to a computer controlled
gizmo for oil level.[/QUOTE]

which, when combined with their warranty terms, tells me that they have
programmed this system very carefully.

 

which, when combined with their warranty terms, tells me that they have
programmed this system very carefully.
[/QUOTE]

yes, if you read the maintenance schedule for a new BMW, it is basically
what everyone should do to any car that they want to keep running
indefinitely but nobody ever does.

This would make me much more likely to consider a used BMW with service
records to be more valuable than other brands. Unfortunately other
people seem to agree with me, as even a "certified pre-owned" 3-series
is a little too rich for my blood.

I still don't like the computerization of something as simple as a
dipstick, although I can understand that if they want to take the brand
more upscale, a hood that is essentially sealed from the perspective of
the end user might be a good thing (note: not this particular end user.
And don't hide all the pretty stuff under plastic, either. If you
want to do something fancy, polish the cam cover, and give me some shiny
stainless headers.)

I do *not* trust American manufacturers to take the same care in
programming that BMW's engineers apparently have done. Sorry, I just
don't trust 'em.

nate

 

I trust the Japanese systems even more.

 

Not any more. It's been totally changed since BMW started offering free
maintenance during the warranty period.

BMW extended the oil and coolant changes considerably, and is now claiming
the transmission fluid is "lifetime fill." Depending on the vehicle they
may not be recommending brake fluid changes at all, and they certainly are
not recommending them annually the way they used to.

It is shameful. Far more so than the stupid fake temperature gauge and
the missing dipstick.

Look into some older ones. You can find mid-eighties BMWs in decent
shape at reasonable prices, and if they have been well-maintained they
are good drivers. Parts are fairly expensive for them, but working on
them is an absolute joy... everything just fits together perfectly without
hammering and prying.

BMW's marketing in the US is totally different than their marketing in
Europe. But they are losing sight of their old core buyers, people who
wanted a vehicle that was fun to drive. The newer BMWs, though they have
considerable sophistication and a lot more fancy modern features, are not
as much fun to drive.

That's okay, I don't trust BMW's engineers either.
--scott

 

Not any more. It's been totally changed since BMW started offering free
maintenance during the warranty period.

BMW extended the oil and coolant changes considerably, and is now claiming
the transmission fluid is "lifetime fill."[/QUOTE]

Yeah--the lifetime of the transmission, no doubt. "When the
transmission goes, you rebuild it and put new fluid in." Right.

 

Heh... I'll betcha that he also won't ask for dirctions when he's
lost......

<G>

JT

 

That is sad. I remember the maintenance schedule for my old 535i;
applied to just about any car it would have guaranteed several decades
of good service and reliability.

Eh, I'm not in the market for a vehicle, and the 944 suits me fine.

If what you say above is true, I'm inclined to agree, sadly. I also
heard that the iDrive system was based on Windows CE, true?

nate

 

It is. Possibly I am driving your old 535i right now, if it's a 1985
model. It's only got 280,000 miles on it so far, though, which is less than
half that of the 2002.

It's more fun to work on than the 944. There's actually room inside the
engine compartment, for one thing. You need one. And you won't get out
of your seat to find your foot has punched through the floorboard like you
will on the 944.

I don't know at all. I have never used Windows CE, but I cannot imagine
the user interface on it can be as bad as iDrive. It's hard to imagine ANY
user interface as poorly thought-out. But then, I am a big fan of having
one control per function whenever possible.
--scott

 

No, it was an '86. I sold it back around 1999 or so with a little
over 200K miles on it. I'd just had the engine replaced with a
junkyard motor, but it had some electronic issue (probably flywheel
sensors?) that would shut it down whenever it got hot, and the
suspension was worn out and I didn't have the $$ to get it in shape to
pass VA safety inspection. (was moving from OH to VA) I do miss it
at times but my particular car wasn't in the greatest of shape,
although the dark grey exterior/red interior was surprisingly
attractive and it was cosmetically very nice.

I no longer live in the rust belt and Porsche seemed to finally
figure out rustproofing sometime in the mid-70s AFAICT.

I agree, I am not enamored of either the concept or the execution.

nate

 

(Just saw this post over a week late...)

I'm sorry, but which Toyota would that be that has an annoying upshift
light? Seems that's more of an 80's piece of crap domestic brand kind
of thing.

Toyota MDT in MO

 

I don't know about your memory getting bad, because I have yet to see
one either. Of course I didn't drive in the 80's, but have seen many
an 80-up between working at home and being in the dealer for so long.
It would be difficult to substantiate short of a well kept owner's
manual or an actual model still up and running. They've been long
gone from salty snowy MO for some time now.

Toyota MDT in MO

 

I don't know about your memory getting bad, because I have yet to see
one either. Of course I didn't drive in the 80's, but have seen many
an 80-up between working at home and being in the dealer for so long.
It would be difficult to substantiate short of a well kept owner's
manual or an actual model still up and running. They've been long
gone from salty snowy MO for some time now.

Toyota MDT in MO

**********
It's good to know that my memory wasn't THAT bad! An upshift light is
something that would have been pointed out in the New Car Features, and
since I am not a fan of such lights, I thought I would have remembered it.
The poster must have been thinking about his VW or something.

Welcome back!

 

God you're dumb.

I've already given you two instances, one by a COMPLETE NON-TECHNICAL
driver (my wife) where a gauge saved an engine.

And in the other case where I (an engineer) was able to detect a failed
filter by abnormal (but still technically in-spec) pressure behavior.

Debate over, proof presented, no question remaining.

 

That's what Steve and his narrow-minded people want. They don't
understand the REAL world in which the typical car buyer lives.
[/QUOTE]

IT always goes to hell when the Honda and Toyota fools invade a
technical discussion.

No, "Steve" never said that. YOU said that engineers prefer
oversimplification, and I (correctly) pointeed out that most engineers
will err on the side of over instrumentation. My PERSONAL claim was
that 4 basic drivetrain instruments are needed to keep a car reasonably
safe: voltage or current, oil pressure, water temperature, and fuel level.

With such SIMPLE instrumentation needs, WHY THE BLOODY HELL is the
motivation for further over-simplification? And even if further
simplification makes some kind of economic sense to the manufacturer
(presumbably because they save a few cents per vehicle and sell a few
more vehicles when an engine roasts because the idiot light said "too
late, you're screwed), why would ANYONE with enough interest in cars to
read R.A.T. actually PREFER a dumbed-down car to one with basic
instrumentation? It wouldn't keep me from buying a car if it only had an
idiot light, but you guys act like you'd turn down a car with 3 gauges!

And by your argument, we should just eliminate the damn fuel gauge too.
Put a warning light on and call it good.

Sheesh.