Yaris, Scion xD, Honda Fit - no water temp gauge

That's what Steve and his narrow-minded people want. They don't
understand the REAL world in which the typical car buyer lives.[/QUOTE]

I guess I'm not typical then, as since I purchased my old F-150 I've
added a REAL oil pressure gauge (thanks Ford!) a dash cluster with tach,
a transmission temp. gauge, and a vacuum gauge. (the last was somewhat
extraneous, but I had a hole to fill.)

Personally I consider at least a water temp. gauge and oil pressure
gauge a must; oil temp., trans temp (if automatic) tach and vacuum are
nice options.

The oil pressure gauge has given me great piece of mind with the Ford,
as it consistently makes a noise that sounds precisely like worn rod
bearings. However, the oil pressure is rock solid stable, even when
lugging the engine (and that happens a lot, being the 4.9 I-6) therefore
I can only assume that it is either piston slap, an exhaust leak, or
something equally benign. You simply can't get that kind of
confirmation/denial of a theory as to "what's wrong" from an idiot
light. A gauge is a hell of a lot cheaper than an exploratory teardown
(which would probably turn into a rebuild, "while you're in there.")

nate

 

er, if you think detroit has an interest in /any/ of their vehicles
running beyond that time, you're too innocent for this game.

see above.

says who? what was the history of your "old f150" when you bought it?
did it have sludge in the radiator? how did you test for that? did you
check the oil in the diff to see it was the correct grade? how worn
were the main bearings? what does an oil leak mean?

bottom line - unless something is, er, "obvious", all you have to go on
is experience and subjective judgment. beyond that, you're just as much
in the dark as the next guy. the only factors on which you can really
rely are mileage [if genuine], documented history [if genuine] and
physical appearance. and even then, that's b.s. my crx has peeling
paint and primer on one door. it looks real ghetto. but the motor
purrs like a kitten and it goes like a freakin' rocket [thanks to a zc
cam]. but you'd never know a damned thing from looking at it, or even
from opening the hood. peeling paint on the rocker cover and everything.

 

So? The auto industry doesn't give a crap about producing decent
products aimed at knowledgeable consumers who intend to keep them for
several decades. This is not news to me. This is also why for years
all of my primary cars have been German (save for one Dodge Dart.) When
I find that design philosophy has swung back to treating a new vehicle
purchase as the investment that something that expensive ought to be, I
might consider a) buying an actual new car and b) buying an American or
Japanese car. Until that time, they will get none of my money.

One owner, all paperwork.

I looked.

no, as it'd never been changed.

I couldn't tell, because it had the factory "idiot gauge" in the dash
when I test drove it.

But if I have gauges, I'm much less in the dark. And if the truck had
had gauges I would have been less likely to negotiate downward as hard.

Good for you. You realize that if you went to sell it, it'd be
completely worthless. (I'm not saying that it really *is,* but neither
can you say with certainty that it *isn't* and that at hot idle the oil
pressure is 0.1 PSI above the threshold that triggers the idiot light.)
Even you don't know the actual condition of some of the mechanical
stuff without gauges.

nate

 

you drained it and used an endoscope??? i don't believe you.

dude, unless they're worn out and oil pressure drops too low, you still
have no idea. and if just one is worn, you definitely won't know unless
it's making noise. especially not if it's spun and the oil way is
blocking what would otherwise be excessive leakage. [you'll find out 50
miles down the road though!]

you could have a flight deck like a 747. but unless you're testing a
prototype, there's no point as it will operate within spec for the life
of the vehicle.

that's precisely my point!!! you can't really tell with /anything/ you
buy unless you have an extremely good working experience of stripped and
failed motors so you can see telltales. can you tell what's acceptable
wear on a cam just by looking at it? what signs flag problems for you?

that's my point! i don't /need/ to know if it's working within spec and
i know it's been well maintained. if you don't know history and you
don't know mileage, i defy you to have the slightest clue about
condition unless you know /exactly/ what you're looking for. even
mileage isn't worth that much - 300k miles well maintained can easily be
better than 75k of neglect.

 

I guess I'm not typical then, as since I purchased my old F-150 I've
added a REAL oil pressure gauge (thanks Ford!) a dash cluster with tach,
a transmission temp. gauge, and a vacuum gauge. (the last was somewhat
extraneous, but I had a hole to fill.)[/QUOTE]

You "guess" you're not typical?

Have you ever spent ANY time in a car dealership, even just watching
what goes on?

 

Yes, it is, because those do not reflect reality.[/QUOTE]

And yet, you want those same car owners who DON'T do halfway competent
maintenance to have twizzler and fidget gauges all over the dashboard,
and you state for the record that of COURSE they'll know what those
gauges do and mean and will pay attention to them??

Face it: you are pwned.

 

So? The auto industry doesn't give a crap about producing decent
products aimed at knowledgeable consumers who intend to keep them for
several decades. This is not news to me. This is also why for years
all of my primary cars have been German[/QUOTE]

<snort> You think GERMAN cars are built with any sense of decently
logical engineering, with the intention of lasting several decades???

I wouldn't buy a German car with YOUR money. (Been there, done that.)

And yes, I "get" German cars. German cars are the expensive, pouty, and
high-maintenance mistresses of the road. Damn, they are a fine, fine
ride...

.....but then the maintenance and pouting kicks in.

At some point, without unlimited funds, you are at a decision point:
continue the high-priced, high-maintenance fun, or go back home and
enjoy your reliable Lexus wife of a car, patiently sitting there waiting
for you to get over the midlife crisis.

Oh sure, she's not as sexy as the German car, and she doesn't handle at
the edge like the German car. She's also not as fickle and high
maintenance and pouty, and she agrees with you much more of the time.
She's always there and never complains, and you come to realize there's
more to life than a high-maintenance relationship with a pouty,
high-maintenance woman--no matter how sexy she is or how fun the nights
out with her can be. Because when she lets you down and demands more of
you than you have to give, and treats you like dirt, you're standing
there all alone outside the club, looking and feeling like an idiot.

Your Lexus wife would never, ever do that to you.

And the occasional fun night out isn't worth what you end up paying for
it, both financially and in time wasted while you wait for the German
car mistress to be in the mood to play.

Do this: start paying attention to cars with tail light and headlight
problems. What brands of cars are you seeing? That's right--VW, M-B, and
BMW. And pay attention to how old, or rather how new, those problem cars
are.

The reality of electrical issues with German cars make Lucas electrics
look reliable.

Now *try* to find a Honda or Toyota, either low brand or high brand, no
matter how old, with non-working tail lights. Good luck.

It's a small thing, but it represents the reality of the situation. You
want to buy a German car? Just buy a GM car. At least the money you're
throwing away stays more inside the country--and you get just as
reliable a car.

 

And yet, you want those same car owners who DON'T do halfway competent
maintenance to have twizzler and fidget gauges all over the dashboard,
and you state for the record that of COURSE they'll know what those
gauges do and mean and will pay attention to them??[/QUOTE]

As I said in my other post, sometimes those gauges are what alerts you
to the fact that maintenance or repair is needed.

Maybe those people won't know what the gauges mean, but if I get that
vibe from them, and the car doesn't have gauges, I won't buy their used
car. As I said, this depresses resale values, which exactly the people
we're talking about consider important when purchasing a new vehicle.

How so? I'm merely presenting my perspective. Auto mfgrs. are free to
pay attention to it or ignore it at their whim, makes no difference to
me. I'll just wait until the 944 is well and truly plumb wore out and
hopefully by then used Boxster S or Cayman prices will be within my
budget. (or VW will make another small sporty car like the original GTI
or Scirocco.)

nate

 

You "guess" you're not typical?

Have you ever spent ANY time in a car dealership, even just watching
what goes on?
[/QUOTE]

Not counting the brief period of time that I actually owned a new car
('02 GTI) the last time I was in a car dealership was at Livonia VW in
Michigan, when my old GTI stopped running a couple blocks away. It did
not end well; read about it here:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.makers.vw.watercooled/browse_frm/thread/32d9a1b5ac292573/00a39ad8e03c2a32?hl=en&lnk=st&q=livonia+VW+nate#00a39ad8e03c2a32

So no, I don't patronize car dealerships that often.

nate

 

<snort> You think GERMAN cars are built with any sense of decently
logical engineering, with the intention of lasting several decades???

I wouldn't buy a German car with YOUR money. (Been there, done that.)

And yes, I "get" German cars. German cars are the expensive, pouty, and
high-maintenance mistresses of the road. Damn, they are a fine, fine
ride...

....but then the maintenance and pouting kicks in.

At some point, without unlimited funds, you are at a decision point:
continue the high-priced, high-maintenance fun, or go back home and
enjoy your reliable Lexus wife of a car, patiently sitting there waiting
for you to get over the midlife crisis.

Oh sure, she's not as sexy as the German car, and she doesn't handle at
the edge like the German car. She's also not as fickle and high
maintenance and pouty, and she agrees with you much more of the time.
She's always there and never complains, and you come to realize there's
more to life than a high-maintenance relationship with a pouty,
high-maintenance woman--no matter how sexy she is or how fun the nights
out with her can be. Because when she lets you down and demands more of
you than you have to give, and treats you like dirt, you're standing
there all alone outside the club, looking and feeling like an idiot.

Your Lexus wife would never, ever do that to you.

And the occasional fun night out isn't worth what you end up paying for
it, both financially and in time wasted while you wait for the German
car mistress to be in the mood to play.

Do this: start paying attention to cars with tail light and headlight
problems. What brands of cars are you seeing? That's right--VW, M-B, and
BMW. And pay attention to how old, or rather how new, those problem cars
are.

The reality of electrical issues with German cars make Lucas electrics
look reliable.

Now *try* to find a Honda or Toyota, either low brand or high brand, no
matter how old, with non-working tail lights. Good luck.

It's a small thing, but it represents the reality of the situation. You
want to buy a German car? Just buy a GM car. At least the money you're
throwing away stays more inside the country--and you get just as
reliable a car.
[/QUOTE]

The 20-year-old Porsche in my driveway disagrees with you. It's
eminently reliable and while the maintenance costs are high that's just
the price of admission. Which is still, when you include purchase price
into the equation, less than the cost of buying ANY new car save for
maybe an el strippo Hyundai or Aveo. Most fun you can have on 4 wheels
for under $4K.

Your characterization might be better applied to Italian or British
cars, and no, I wouldn't kick a Fiat Spyder or Triumph TR-6 out of my
driveway for leaking oil. Probably wouldn't want to rely on it to get
me to work every day, though, at least not without a backup vehicle.

nate

 

not to a competent technician. if you know what you're doing, almost
nothing should take you by surprise.

this has indeed been a very interesting thread. the desire seems to be,
underlined repeatedly by people such as yourself, is that people /want/
gauges. hence they're fitted. but the engineering reality is,
pressure, temp, etc. are better served by warning lights. and the
"gauges" people are given are /far/ from what they believe them to be.

 

The 20-year-old Porsche in my driveway disagrees with you. It's
eminently reliable[/QUOTE]

I guarantee that if you and I got together, we would never come to a
common definition of the word "reliable".

 

As I said in my other post, sometimes those gauges are what alerts you
to the fact that maintenance or repair is needed.[/QUOTE]

I repeat: only if you understand the principles of operation of the
machine--which does not reflect the car buying public at large.

If you don't know enough to (a) open the owner's manual, and (b) follow
the VERY SIMPLE maintenance schedule--or, on a newer car, simply follow
the lights on the dash that say "take the car in for service A"--then
the gauges are a complete waste of money and dash real estate.

 

Not counting the brief period of time that I actually owned a new car
('02 GTI) the last time I was in a car dealership was at Livonia VW in
Michigan, when my old GTI stopped running a couple blocks away. It did
not end well; read about it here:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.makers.vw.watercooled/browse_frm/thre
ad/32d9a1b5ac292573/00a39ad8e03c2a32?hl=en&lnk=st&q=livonia+VW+nate#00a39ad8e0
3c2a32

So no, I don't patronize car dealerships that often.[/QUOTE]

My advice to you would be to go and kick tires for a few hours at the
local Ford dealership on a sales weekend, to see what (a) customers are
like, and (b) the red meat eating sales staff is like.

Gauges are meaningless.

 

I guarantee that if you and I got together, we would never come to a
common definition of the word "reliable".
[/QUOTE]

Perhaps not. I don't mind *maintenance* but I do mind replacing broken
parts.

I especially loathe my company-provided Impala. It just sucks in too
many unique and interesting ways to list here. (peeve no. 1 - would it
be too much to ask for a functional parking brake?) That alone is
enough to seriously turn me off GM, despite the fact that I still have a
serious jones for my dad's (well, it was my grandpa's) '73 stepside.
And his old '67 Cutlass, RIP. I've heard that we're getting Malibus
next time around and that the new Vectra-based 'bus are actually
acceptable. I sure hope so.

nate

 

My advice to you would be to go and kick tires for a few hours at the
local Ford dealership on a sales weekend, to see what (a) customers are
like, and (b) the red meat eating sales staff is like.

Gauges are meaningless.
[/QUOTE]

Why in the name of all that is good and holy would you want me to do
that? I already loathe most of the human race enough after simply
commuting to work. I don't need to get any snarkier.

nate

 

The reason ford uses the binary status as a gauge is, as I heard it (and
believe it because of my experience in product development), is that on
earlier vehicles it was a real gauge but people didn't understand how
oil pressure varies and were racking up warranty costs thinking there
was a problem. It's a classic reaction of a US corporation to just dumb
it down rather than to arrive at solution that would let the real gauge
stay. I doubt there is any savings in the sender differences.

 

I'm sure you're right. I can at least confirm that the earlier trucks
used a real gauge. Supposedly you can make the later dash gauges work
by using a real gauge sender and bypassing a resistor on the back of the
gauge panel, and I tried that, but I still didn't trust the gauge. the
readings would vary for random reasons, and even worse, the readings
would dip fairly reliably while accelerating, making me think that I had
a bearing issue. A mechanical gauge confirmed that the whole dash gauge
setup was just a flaky mess however.

nate

 

Exactly.

But Nate seems to think that the same dumbasses whom he ADMITS can't
halfway maintain their cars, can suddenly see the gauges and know what
to think about them.

 

No, I didn't say that. What I said was, that given a choice between
only an idiot light and either a gauge or a gauge combined with an idiot
light, the latter two are infinitely preferable. Even people utterly
ignorant of the inner workings of a vehicle are able to tell when
something doesn't act the way it used to, even if they don't completely
understand what it means. Plus, for those of us who *do* know how to
read them and can make some use of the info, equipping a car with only
an idiot light is insulting.

nate