you think chery is next honda?

The point is they were not Japanese original ideas. I have great respect for
the Japanese knack for copying something, cars, trucks, motorcycles, TV's...
and making them better and easier to use. But that was not the issue. Japan
is a nation of robots. They take someone else's idea and usually improve on
it. THAT was my point.

 

sure. theres a lot of stuff i own that would have been/was prohibitively
expensive not that long ago.


an aluminum 18" lift, 25lb racing jack, $100 at harbor freight.
something i wouldnt have even considered years ago. $40 harbor freight
electric 1/2" impact wrench... basically a black and decker bulldog ripoff.

 

even then it took a full TEN YEARS for japan to build a minivan on a FWD
car platform, like chrysler did.

they kept using pickup truck frames, like ford did with the aerostar,
and GM with the astro.

now daimler/chrysler is making bentley/rolls "look alikes"

 

even then it took a full TEN YEARS for japan to build a minivan on a FWD
car platform, like chrysler did.[/QUOTE]

It actually took 15 years for them to build a *competitive* minivan.

For 15 years, ChryCo owned the minivan market. Introduced in the 84
model year, it just kept getting better. It wasn't until 1999 that
Honda brought out the Odyssey and finally competed, finally broke the
Japanese out of their scared mindset (they were too scared to bring out
something that REALLY competed with the ChyrCos; witness all those
small, ugly, relatively speaking crummy vans).

The Japanese sometimes can't--or rather, won't--even copy something
that's wildly successful, because they're too busy looking at the other
Japanese companies and waiting for someone else in their world to blink.

 

It wasn't until 1999

1998 Toyota Sienna.

Actually, the Toyota Previa was pretty big but suffered with an
underpowered engine and high price tag. It was also clear that the
Previa wasn't going to pass any frontal crash test.

Or perhaps they're so risk adverse that until they're assured success
they tend not to engage.

 

That gen Sienna doesn't even really compete with the big boys.

 

That doesn't sound like Honda.

I think that in Honda's case, they were following an orderly expansion
plan. When Chrysler introduced the minivans there were quotas on
Japanese vehicles. Trucks (which includes minivans) still have a 25%
tariff. Honda was spending money building US factories and selling
all the cars they could make. They had no engines or transmissions
suitable for use in a minivan. And this kind of vehicle wasn't likely
to big seller outside of NA. In all, it just wasn't the right vehicle
for Honda to make at that time.

Ten years later, Honda had more factory capacity in NA. The US had
become its most important market. The Accord had grown large enough
that it could form the basis for a minivan. Honda built the G1
Odyssey. Not a bad vehicle (I own one) but a little small for most
buyers (just right for me). There were some things they could have
done better, but it was a valuable learning experience.

Five years later they were ready to commit to a larger truck line so
the G2 Odyssey could share a drive train with MDX and Pilot. Now
Honda had the top rated minivan. And it is still at the top although
the Sienna is pretty much even. Why it took Toyota so long is another
question.

 

Risk adverse vs. orderly expansion plan.
Maybe "orderly expansion" is just an effort to decrease risk.
What do you think?

 

About the same size as the std Caravan and not much smaller than the
1999 Ody. That first generation Sienna sold pretty well for being
non-competitive.

 

It actually took 15 years for them to build a *competitive* minivan.

For 15 years, ChryCo owned the minivan market. Introduced in the 84
model year, it just kept getting better.[/QUOTE]

i think chrysler just copied the french.

this thing:

http://www.matrasport.dk/Cars/Espace/history.html

was the leader in minivans in europe and it came out in 77/78.
suspension was a damned sight better than the garbage on that chrysler
thing too. and check out this:

http://www.matrasport.dk/Cars/Espace/Gallery2/Med/espaceF1.html

 

No, it is an effort to maintain sanity. You have a plan and, as long
as it is working, you stick to it. Running after every opportunity,
even if it is a good one, disrupts the bigger growth plan.

By any rational judgement, Honda has been growing just about as fast
as possible. Keep in mind, twelve years before the Chrysler minivans
arrived, Honda only made cars with air-cooled engines.

 

Well, I offer the following -
Ridgeline, Pilot, MDX, Element
as Honda running after a market.

I submit these distractions have significantly hurt Honda's car
development.

No, IMHO they'd have a complete set of killer cars if they hadn't
squandered resources on their lame "trucks."

Honda's figured it was less risky to build trucks to capture USA sales
than it was to build a better Civic, Accord or Prelude. The Prelude is
gone, the last Civic was so bad they had to do a major redesign
(Corolla still outsells Civic) and the Accord is having a tough sell as
a Japanese sporty sedan against Mazda 6 and Altima competition (let
alone challenging the Camry as top seller).

Honda was so risk adverse they abandoned their car plan, took up a
truck plan and now has a lot of ground to make up.

 

well said! could not agree more.

 

Hear hear.

The beancounters took over at Honda, and Honda paid the price. Ugly
cars, unprecedented transmission problems--not once, but twice IN A ROW
with different transmissions, even.

I think the beancounters have been forced aside lately, though. We'll
see.

 

I agree that Honda's car development dropped off the curve for a
while. It seems to be improving now. Honda is a lot bigger company
now than it used to be. It has the resources to carry out development
on multiple vehicle lines.

I personally wish that people (or at least people without a legitimate
reason) would stop buying SUVs,. But there seems to be a persistent
market and the MDX and Pilot are pretty good choices if you are
looking for that kind of vehicle. You can't blame Honda for wanting
to have a vehicle in this category.

If the idea of an SUV is a little dim-witted, these quasi pickup-SUV
trucks (eg. Ridgeline and Avalanche) are downright moronic. I don't
think the market is that big either. For what it's worth, the Honda
is definitely the best (least insane) choice among these.

Element is actually in a nice little niche. It could be excellent if
the execution were a little less cute and the size increased a notch
or two.

 

No executive team at Honda ever lasts very long. The constant,
voluntary turnover at the executive level is a Honda tradition. The
latest CEO took the office in 2003 and will probably

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05252/568685.stm

** Quote **

We were concerned the Civic might keep growing old with the baby
boomers and die off," says Honda Chief Engineer Toshiro Morita, who
headed the latest Civic redesign. He says the car had lost its edge
and had become like a "big rounded ball."

About the same time, Honda CEO Mr. Fukui, who took over in 2003, was
trying to rid the company of its conservatism. He says in an interview
that Honda was afflicted by "big-company disease" in the way it
develops technology, conducts product-planning and markets its
vehicles.

Stung by weak sales, top Honda executives began rethinking the Civic
three years ago. When Mr. Fukui took over as CEO, he broadly
encouraged this kind of endeavor and pushed Honda to embrace what he
called "a smell of danger."

Meanwhile, company managers pledged to stay out of the Civic redesign,
recalls Mr. Morita, the chief engineer. "They told me on so many
occasions that they no longer understood what moved young buyers and
that they were willing to give me and my team free rein in designing
the next generation Civic," he recalls.


Honda tries to revive the Civic's virtues

Friday, September 09, 2005
By Norihiko Shirouzu, The Wall Street Journal

** End Quote **

Management concedes marketing decisions to the Chief Engineer. That
is so typically Honda that I am not too worried about the future.

 

How come I didn't see many of those even in China. They are mostly VWs and
Hondas.

 

it was starting to resemble a low-rent sentra. especially from the back!
at least the corolla looked semi-sporty, and could pass for an
entry-level lexus.

 

thanks for that interesting and informative post! particularly
fascinating to see management describe the recent trend in honda
engineering as "conservative", when in reality it was extreme bean
counting and chasing the tail-spin of detroit as if it were a "Good Thing".

please please please honda, let the next generations of vehicles
[particularly civics] get back to doing what they did best - the "wolf
in sheeps clothing". and please please please honda, bring back a
wishboned crx. hatchback.

 

Oops, for got to finish the sentence. Fukui will probably announce
his retirement in the next year or so. He is 62 this year and 63 is a
typical retirement age for Honda CEOs.